Is the frequency of lemons increasing?

[Gunhacker]

I'm sure that there will always be people that have gotten nothing but perfect guns from S&W, and those that run into "lemons".

I only recently just started buying the new style guns, I have been buying S&W's for 40 years, so there hasn't been a need/want within recent times for something else, already having an accumulation of S&W revolvers and pistols that numbers over 60.

But, the 625-8 JM's did manage to catch my eye, and I bought one a few months ago, it has a clocked barrel with the front sight blade slightly canted to the left.

I didn't catch it simply because in all of the previous years/decades of buying S&W's, I've never needed to be concerned or even give it a second thought about giving a factory new S&W a close scrutiny, I previously could depend on them coming from the factory defect free in fit and finish... I bought it the same way that I've always bought new S&W's, relying on my normal no need to worry buying habit.

I was at my LGS last week, they finally got a M69 after those finally became available in California. It's taken well over a year since the M69 first came out for them to be legal to sell here. I was excited as all get out to finally see one is a display case, and eagerly asked to look at it.

I passed it up... the quality was a big let down, the barrel shroud was so misaligned that the serration lines on the barrel rib and the ones on the frame top strap, were off by 3 lines, making the front sight blade canted. The recess on the shroud that locks it with the lug on the frame front, looked to be off center, causing the misalignment.

They had a 686-6, same issue an over clocked barrel, with a canted front sight.

So from my perspective... S&W has a QA issue and I have changed my new gun buying habits to now always conduct a careful inspection, after not needing to do so for many, many years prior.... and coming to that realization, where I can no longer trust S&W and now need to do that is, is down right disheartening, for an old S&W dog like me.

 

[bigfatty]

Boy, I sure can't agree with that statement. Remington and Smith and Wesson are the two companies that I've most noticed going down hill over the years. SIG has actually done the opposite. SIG were phenomenal back in the 80's and early 90's, went very downhill in the mid-late 90's, and have made a stellar comeback in the last 5-8 years. I've bought 5 new SIG's in the last 3 years and they have all been every bit as good as my original German made pistols. The recent SIG quality has been top notch. Of course there are still lemons, every company will put out lemons from time to time. I'm strictly speaking to their reputation and quality in general.

Sig's Classic P Series guns are top notch, and I've never had a problem with one. They have problems with their 1911 and 1911 style guns (P238/938). I personally had several of those go back, but I don't have a single bad thing to say about their customer service and the end result.

 

[slabside2]

I sure that there will always be people that have gotten nothing but perfect guns from S&W, and those that run into "lemons".

I only recently just started buying the new style guns, I have been buying S&W's for 40 years, so there hasn't been a need/want within recent times for something else, already having an accumulation of S&W revolvers and pistols that numbers over 60.

But, the 625-8 JM's did manage to catch my eye, and I bought one a few months ago, it has a clocked barrel with the front sight blade slightly canted to the left.

I didn't catch it simply because in all of the previous years/decades of buying S&W's, I've never needed to be concerned or even give it a second thought about giving a factory new S&W a close scrutiny, I previously could depend on them coming from the factory defect free in fit and finish... I bought it the same way that I've always bought new S&W's, relying on my normal no need to worry buying habit.

I was at my LGS last week, they finally got a M69 after those finally became available in California. It's taken well over a year since the M69 first came out for them to be legal to sell here. I was excited as all get out to finally see one is a display case, and eagerly asked to look at it.

I passed it up... the quality was a big let down, the barrel shroud was so misaligned that the serration lines on the barrel rib and the ones on the frame top strap, were off by 3 lines, making the front sight blade canted. The recess on the shroud that locks it with the lug on the frame front, looked to be off center, causing the misalignment.

They had a 686-6, same issue an over clocked barrel, with a canted front sight.

So from my perspective... S&W has a QA issue and I have changed my new gun buying habits to now always conduct a careful inspection, after not needing to do so for many, many years prior.... and coming to that realization, where I can no longer trust S&W and now need to do that is, is down right disheartening, for an old S&W dog like me.

Welcome to the new S&W. I like you waved the white flag a year ago after lots of $$$$ and time waiting for the Fedx truck to sign for it or going to my FFL dealer to pick up my new gun S&W sent me because the gun I sent it was unrepairable.

 

[ClayCow]

My rubber grip broke off of my 442 after 50 roubds. Been over 2 weeks and the replacement from s&w still hasnt arrived. Extremelt irritated,but ill keep buying S&w since they have nice looking guns.

 

[bigfatty]

Welcome to the new S&W. I like you waved the white flag a year ago after lots of $$$$ and time waiting for the Fedx truck to sign for it or going to my FFL dealer to pick up my new gun S&W sent me because the gun I sent it was unrepairable.

Did you get lucky and not have to send the replacement back for repair?

 

[twodog max]

I read on several gun forums. From all appearances manufacturers are turning out a lot of lemons. Is it more than in the past that is impossible for us outsiders to say. In todays information age people with problems have easy access to venues such as this forum to air their complaint so they are much more visible. There are also from my take on it a lot more new gun owners that think they have problems and take to the net for help. I have and have had several new S&W that are just fine. I have a very early 586 with a canted barrel. Beautiful revolver with a slight problem. I had an early Model 25 45 Colt that shot so high it was almost impossible to sight in with normal 45 Colt bullet weights. These are from the good old days but S&W let them out the door like this. In my completely uninformed take on this there have always been a few problem guns getting away and with production ramped up and a lot of new gun buyers out there with the net to vent on it on the surface looks real bad. Maybe it is or maybe no worse than ever. In the end S&W seems to be making it right but I know it is extremely aggravating to have to send one back. It seems as bad or worse over at the Ruger forum so maybe it is just the times we live in.

 

[frankcr]

I believe the two edged sword is the easy communication we have today. It is wonderful to be able to reach out to others for opinions on things. The flip side is that many times people make repeated posts on the same problem gun giving the idea that there are many more bad examples than there actually are.

On a boating website I frequent, two or three men have had problems with their hulls and make many posts on the same boats. You would get the idea that a great many boats are involved until you check and see it is the same men repeatedly posting.

People satisfied with their purchase generally do not post to tell the world that they are satisfied, so there is no way to know how many times a factory got it right.

Throw in the guys wishing for the good old days and you have a woe is me crowd to deal with which makes it even harder to get a realistic picture of the situation.

The good thing about Smith is that they back their products and wish to satisfy their customers.

 

[UncleEd]

Going back to the days of Bangor Punta ownership of Smith, I think the idea of "lemons" is nothing new nor more widespread.

At one time under one of the previous ownerships, Smith was ordered to increase production while staff was being cut. It
was an attempt by the then holding company to cash in on Smith's reputation.

 

[qballwill]

I believe the two edged sword is the easy communication we have today. It is wonderful to be able to reach out to others for opinions on things. The flip side is that many times people make repeated posts on the same problem gun giving the idea that there are many more bad examples than there actually are.

On a boating website I frequent, two or three men have had problems with their hulls and make many posts on the same boats. You would get the idea that a great many boats are involved until you check and see it is the same men repeatedly posting.

People satisfied with their purchase generally do not post to tell the world that they are satisfied, so there is no way to know how many times a factory got it right.

Throw in the guys wishing for the good old days and you have a woe is me crowd to deal with which makes it even harder to get a realistic picture of the situation.

The good thing about Smith is that they back their products and wish to satisfy their customers.

I completely agree with this theory! Im not saying that the frequency of lemons isnt a little more than decades ago, but I think the consumer being able to share their issues with others so easily makes bad news travel fast.

 

[dwever]

Throw in the guys wishing for the good old days and you have a woe is me crowd to deal with which makes it even harder to get a realistic picture of the situation.

And these kinds of threads which spawn with regularity, seem to have a significant skew towards forum members who have joined more recently. Only 16 posts of the first 48 here are made by members who joined prior to 2011; and, the OP hasn't been here two years yet. In a virtually identically size thread next door to this one (at the time of this post), of the people posting on the frame-mounted firing pin thread, 26 of the first 48 posts joined prior to 2011.

And, while newer and older members fall on both sides of the issue, generally speaking, newer members are more likely to support the 'increasing lemon theory', while people who have been members longer are more likely to say, "Just a minute on that."

And finally, one guy who joined last year states that twenty-six 686's that he checked over a one year period, in a ROW, either had a canted barrel or scratches. I'm not calling anybody out here, but it stretches credulity to the limit to think somebody kept a precise numerical count for over a year of samples viewed. That's another thing wrong with the internet: likely approximations or exaggerations can be presented as data points.

 

[SLT223]

People satisfied with their purchase generally do not post to tell the world that they are satisfied, so there is no way to know how many times a factory got it right.

Same thing with the vehicle forums.

 

[rct269]

All this seems to say S&W has a quality control issue.

It occurs to me quality control may not be the REAL problem. The first thing one learns in Problem Solving School is to make sure you know what the REAL problem is----before you spend resources trying to fix symptoms---------symptoms of the REAL problem.

Maybe the REAL problem is philosophical.There are two philosophies extant within the companies which make up the industrial world. The first : We will be successful if we make our product at the lowest possible cost. The second: We will be successful if we make the best possible product for the price.

I have a bunch of S&W's which were clearly made by a company whose philosophy was they would be successful if they built the best possible product for the price. Perhaps S&W's perceived quality control problem is really just a symptom of a change in philosophy. If so, it has been my observation that "That which you sow, so shall you reap."-----or something like that.

Just some food for thought----for those who think.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Rob41]

And these kinds of threads which spawn with regularity, have a significant skew towards newer forum members. Only 16 posts of the first 48 here are made by members who joined prior to 2011; and, the OP hasn't been here two years yet. In a virtually identically size thread next to this one (at the time of this post), of the people posting on the frame-mounted firing pin thread, 26 of the first 48 posts joined prior to 2011.

And, while newer and older members fall on both sides of the issue, generally speaking, newer members are more likely to support the 'increasing lemon theory', while older members are more likely to say, "Just a minute on that."

I joined within the last month and my first post (and thread) here was on my impressions of my new .460 XVR. I may have come across as a bit of a fan boy because I am so pleased with the quality and performance. It wasn't controversial and is a bit of a niche caliber so there were very few posts in the thread.

A thread about faults with Smith and Wesson on a Smith and Wesson site is sure to generate a great many responses as people can be very defensive about their passions.

I will say this. If there were issues with the quality of this firearm my first post would have been about that. Regardless of the size of the company, I think it's unacceptable they would let any of these lemons leave the way they are. The 629 at the beginning of this thread has several significant issues that are far beyond a simple ding or scratch.

I would not be swayed from buying more firearms from Smith and Wesson as I realize the majority of their firearms are good to go, but would surely be disappointed if I had to send a new gun back for repairs. Personally, I don't want a new gun I have to send back to be repaired.

Luckily I've never bought a lemon but I sure feel for those that have.

 

[dwever]

I joined within the last month and my first post (and thread) here was on my impressions of my new .460 XVR.

The fit and finish on my example of the Smith & Wesson .460 is flawless, the timing is spot on and it is performing perfectly. I wouldn't change anything with the revolver. If my initial experiences are any indication, the S&W is exceptionally well designed and executed example of what a modern hunting revolver should be.

Glad that weapon is such a joy. My own experiences with S&W revolvers have been much the same, although admittedly I haven't let a few scratches stop a purchase - it's a tool not a jewel anyway.

 

[Rob41]

Me too. And there are a few more Smith's I'd like to get. In spite of seeing threads about lemons, It appears they are few and far between considering the volume of sales S&W has.

 

[John R]

A lot of truth here I think. To get them consistently well fit and QC'd out the door, prices would probably go up $200-$300 bucks. This way if you want one good you send it back and it comes back good at no extra cost. If you don't know or care then no ones the wiser.

Imagine that, having to pay a premium to get the way it's supposed to be, no thanks, if it's not right in the gun shop I won't buy it.

 

[twodog max]

I was in a gun store this morning looking at the S&W revolvers. They had 7 or 8 and not one I looked at had any discernible scratches or canted barrel. On the outside the quality appeared OK to me.

Maybe the writer saying new posters had the most complaints is on to something. On another forum I read a thread by an admitted newbie that was demanding the manufacturer give him a new revolver because after using it a short time it had a cylinder turn ring. I really do not see how a manufacturer is able to deal successfully with complaints like that.

 

[Comrad]

S & W is using their customers as their QC department. Ship it. If it doesn't come back, it's good. If it does come back, they'll fix it.

That's how it's done these days. I've been told, and believe it, that the big box stores don't want the manufacturers to QA their products and that's how they can sell so cheap and also why they will take anything back.
We are all QA testers working for free.

 

[Bahamaroot]

Of course S&W"s quality isn't what it used to be. Name one American, or any product for that matter, that still is what it was 30+ years ago! Even 20yrs for that matter.
If it was the same Smith it was in the 80's you'd be paying $3k for that gun you just got for $800.

 

[357-RevolverGuy]

Name one American, or any product for that matter, that still is what it was 30+ years ago! Even 20yrs for that matter.

Well maybe not with guns but I bought a Buck 110 knife last year (50th anniversary model) for $34.99 and it was was put together with much better quality and craftsmanship than my 1986 Buck 110. Still made in the USA and how they manage to not go up in price is beyond me... But the sheath it came with wasn't as nice ... it was nylon. They use to be all leather.

As for the OP... glad they worked it out for you. I don't know how that one got past them. The rust was the one thing I would have seen when I first handled the gun. Don't ever put money down without inspecting everything carefully. I read some of the comments and some mention that even the Bangor Punta years were bad, but honestly I'd take 10 Smith's from those years than one made today.