Is there something in the water in Texas?....

[pharmer]

"Common sense" has gone out the window in the OC movement. I find it a pain to carry a 6906 with regularity, but it's better than nothing. I can't imagine trying to get through a typical day with an M4 slung over my shoulder. Loading up groceries, sitting down to lunch or dinner in a restaurant, pumping gas, mowing the lawn, just getting in and out of the truck; I'm tired just thinking about it. Yeah, if I knew "today is the day" for a firefight, I'd bring heavy artillery. Better yet, stay home and phone the cops. Joe

 

[Watchdog]

It's interesting to watch, though.

Actually, it's become somewhat boring for me. You eventually get tired of watching people making fools out of themselves.

I support open carry, but face facts. If you open carry, you leave yourself vulnerable to all sorts of harassment and ridicule. And you can't shoot someone for laughing at you.

And there's always that "Going Armed to the Terror of The Public" thing waiting to fall on you. It takes very little to get that charge leveled at you. And if you're carring an AR platform rifle down the street, are you simply carrying it, or are you "brandishing" it?

And frankly, there's always the chance that someone...cop or civilian...will shoot you, simply because they don't know your intentions, they don't know why you're carrying a Mossberg 930SPX into Walgreen's.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Times have changed... society is different... this isn't the wild west...

Where have I heard this before? Now I remember... it's the same exact failed thinking that anti-gun groups chirp as they've been steamrolled across America with pro-gun legislation for the past 25 years. Now some gun owners are adopting this failed thinking? Go figure...

Might as well give up the fretting and failed anti-gun rhetoric. All the gun rights groups are now on board and believe OC has a good chance of passing. When OC comes to Texas what will you do, hide in the basement?

Don't worry. Most all the other states have some form of OC and they're doing just fine. Really guys, don't worry about it.

 

[fyimo]

I guess I view it different in the fact that while I open carry where allowed which on our hunting lease and in my home I don't see the need to walk in to Target with an AR 15 locked and loaded hanging on my shoulder. The black rifle to none gun folks is very threatening and they freak when they see it. I don't know if my Sig P228 carry pistol would be any less threatening but I think is might be.

Anyway in my opinion it's doing more harm than good and it's hurting legal concealed carry holders from carrying into places that they could before.

Now if you want to make dark suppositions who says it's not the anti gun people doing this to piss off middle America and people who are in the middle on guns and gun control.

Look I'm a Vietnam Combat infantry grunt who lived with an M-16 or M-14 sniper rifle in my hands 24x7 for 10.5 months so it seems perfectly normal to me but I represent a very small percentage of the population. I wouldn't like someone shopping next to me with an AR-15 slung over their shoulder because I don't know their mental state or if they are able to really know what is doing and not a threat at the time. At least in Vietnam I knew my people as a Squad Leader and then Platoon Sgt. I knew my men were trained professionals and it was my responsibility to know their mental state.

 

[hatt]

Don't worry. Most all the other states have some form of OC and they're doing just fine. Really guys, don't worry about it.

This is what I'm not understanding. Almost all states have open carry. Even gun unfriendly ones. A couple, very pro gun, states have a movement to get open carry. And now all the sudden the sky is falling.

 

[hatt]

I guess I view it different in the fact that while I open carry where allowed which on our hunting lease and in my home I don't see the need to walk in to Target with an AR 15 locked and loaded hanging on my shoulder. The black rifle to none gun folks is very threatening and they freak when they see it. I don't know if my Sig P228 carry pistol would be any less threatening but I think is might be.

The AR15 was legal. The P228 is illegal.

 

[TexasArmed]

You are correct that there is a legal way to post against CC, but that doesn't change the fact that the business owner has said to keep your guns out of his store, legal or otherwise.

But there is no question that the policy was put in place to address OC.

That is insufficient to be charged with a criminal trespass unless the owner asks a CHL holder to leave. He could have asked 100 times and published it in the wall street journal and the new York times, if he does not post the 30.06 sign as required by state law, the CHL is not required to disarm. Now if the CHL holder is given a letter or asked to leave he must comply.

The problem for that business is they cannot have it both ways.
Either they post the legal sign and keep everyone off including
CHL holders, or they broadcast it on TV. I ignore all gun buster
signs unless they are a legal enforceable sign. Owners know
what is required for it to be enforceable. It is not my job to
tell them that, I figure they know that already. To say an owner
wants you not to carry but is UNWILLING to post a legal sign is
double talk. It won't hold up in court. But if you ignore the
30.06 sign it will.

 

[fyimo]

The AR15 was legal. The P228 is illegal.

Not in Arkansas because we have no restrictions in what we carry where it's legal. It is not legal in Arkansas to walk into Walmart, Target or any other public place, State Park, or Federal Park using open carry of any weapon so I use concealed carry where it's legal. My fear is some dumb *** in another state like Texas will ruin my concealed carry rights in stores I can now carry in.


Just like what they are doing in Texas because National Store Chains make rules USA wide. So when they get lots of customer push back for open carry in Texas they ban all guns from the stores in all the states.

If you think that is a leap forward in our cause I don't.

 

[cyphertext]

That is insufficient to be charged with a criminal trespass unless the owner asks a CHL holder to leave. He could have asked 100 times and published it in the wall street journal and the new York times, if he does not post the 30.06 sign as required by state law, the CHL is not required to disarm. Now if the CHL holder is given a letter or asked to leave he must comply.

The problem for that business is they cannot have it both ways.
Either they post the legal sign and keep everyone off including
CHL holders, or they broadcast it on TV. I ignore all gun buster
signs unless they are a legal enforceable sign. Owners know
what is required for it to be enforceable. It is not my job to
tell them that, I figure they know that already. To say an owner
wants you not to carry but is UNWILLING to post a legal sign is
double talk. It won't hold up in court. But if you ignore the
30.06 sign it will.

Thank you, I'm quite familiar with the law. The point isn't if it is enforceable, but that if you truly respect private property rights, you would not carry there either. Since Target has asked that I leave the firearm at home, I will respect their wishes.

However, this is where I now write my letter to Target, including my Target red card number and let them know that my family will no longer be shopping there, and why. But again, had the OC crew not have carried their long guns into private businesses, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[cyphertext]

FYIMO makes a very valid point... the actions of the Of movement not only affect Texas, but other states as well. What happens if Target decides to post Ghostbusters signs in their stores to appease the mad moms and General public? In Texas, the sign is not enforceable, but go north into Oklahoma and now you can't carry into the store.

That is my biggest beef with these people. Protest on public grounds, not private businesses. OCT and CATI Texas leaders agree... But there are still a few fringe groups, like Open Carry Tarrant County, that are screwing it up.

 

[cyphertext]

Times have changed... society is different... this isn't the wild west...

Where have I heard this before? Now I remember... it's the same exact failed thinking that anti-gun groups chirp as they've been steamrolled across America with pro-gun legislation for the past 25 years. Now some gun owners are adopting this failed thinking? Go figure...

Might as well give up the fretting and failed anti-gun rhetoric. All the gun rights groups are now on board and believe OC has a good chance of passing. When OC comes to Texas what will you do, hide in the basement?

Don't worry. Most all the other states have some form of OC and they're doing just fine. Really guys, don't worry about it.

Phil, you may be right. If it passes next year, I expect most businesses to take the wait and see approach. And if, like in many other states, not many carry openly anyway, nothing will change.

Since open carry will still tie to the CHL, I doubt many will carry. But will that be good enough for the OC movement?

 

[keith44spl]

This is such a interesting thread, some folks on the right,
some folks on the left and a few of us stuck in the middle here.

Regardless of one's stand on the issue of open carry in Texas.......

When Texas passes open carry for side arms, I pledge to karma
a brand new fancy custom rig suitable for carry most anywheres.

All that is required of the winner, is post a picture here on the forum,
of them wearing their brand spanking new rig on the steps of the Capital in Austin....
Or maybe just the court house steps in the county of residence


Of course, the holster will have readily visible level two retention



When it passes....Phil remind me of this post


All My Best,
Dave


God Bless Texas

Hook em Horns


.

 

[TexasArmed]

Thank you, I'm quite familiar with the law. The point isn't if it is enforceable, but that if you truly respect private property rights, you would not carry there either. Since Target has asked that I leave the firearm at home, I will respect their wishes.

However, this is where I now write my letter to Target, including my Target red card number and let them know that my family will no longer be shopping there, and why. But again, had the OC crew not have carried their long guns into private businesses, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I disagree. I respect property rights, but Property Rights do not trump Texas State Law. Texas State Law says they have a
legal way to stop anyone from carrying and specifies the two
signs that can be used, the size of the lettering etc. So if
Target respects Texas State Law and does not want me to carry
they certainly can do that. The Open Carry argument one way
or another does not concern me. Texas State law on concealed
carry does. Just because Target takes it upon themselves to
target everyone who carries does not trump Texas State Law.
If your in business in Texas and you own the property, you don't want someone to carry, you post a legal sign. Anything less is not legal and is a blanket notice to concealed
carry license holders that it is okay to carry.

I do not for example enter a gun shop where there is a 30.06
sign. If I see a gun buster sign I disregard it, I do not go up
to a manager and ask, "hey, is it okay for me to carry, you don't
have a 30.06 sign?" I give them credit for knowing the State
law. When they put up the legal 30.06 sign they do not ask
my permission if its okay with me for them to endanger my
safety by asserting their property right. Same with a yellow
recommended speed limit sign. If the State wants to assert
their right to limit my speed, the will put up a legal sign.

You do not have the right to restrict me from carrying without
legal notification. Legal notification can be as much each person
that notifies me when I walk in with, "hey you can't carry in here",
or they can post the legal sign.

Texas laws regarding the required signs to restrict carrying
were made for a reason, to remove the uncertainty involved
in whether it is or is not okay to carry on that business property.
Businesses are licensed to operate in Texas by Texas. If their
property rights are more important than my safety to them then
they have a perfect right to ask me not to carry by putting up the 30.06
sign, and I will respect that. I will not respect an announcement
that many folks may or many not have heard, that they prefer
I not carry. I do not elevate a private business to the status
of a post office or federal facility where they can tread on my
rights with or without a sign. For a business to tread on my
right of self defense they must post a legal sign in Texas. Then
I have a perfect legally clear choice to not enter or to disarm.

Open carry is a none issue to me since I do not open carry and
I do not plan to do so. That's between their business and those
who want to open carry. Just because the business decides they can
slide in a restriction to concealed carry rights by putting up a sign
which does not meet legal requirements does not cut the mustard.
I believe in the right of self defense and I will not allow someone
with an ambiguous sign to trample on that right. Respect my
right of self defense or post a clear un-ambiguous sign that
tells me you do not want a CHL holder on your property.
To suggest that a CHL holder follow non legal signs or comply with
notices short of that, which do not meet the requirements of Texas
State law, is somehow not respecting property rights, is ludicrous.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Since open carry will still tie to the CHL, I doubt many will carry. But will that be good enough for the OC movement?

What it won't be good enough for is Bloomberg and his henchMoms. They will never stop. These people are the villians, not those fighting for their 2A rights.

In Tenn permit holders can open carry, but our Senate recently passed a bill to allow OC without a handgun permit. The House is a roadblock but I think it will eventually move forward. There is not a great call for it right now, but generally speaking our boys in Nashville seem to keep one step ahead on these matters. To answer your question... My guess is that the OC movement in Texas will likely not be satisfied until ALL their 2A rights are legal to excersize. The question is... will Texas legislators stay ahead of it? If they don't, then my guess is that they can continue to expect to be openly reminded. Texas is way behind the rest of the nation in regards to OC. That it eventually stirred an activist movement should be no surprise.

Guns in Bars was another one that Nashville was ahead of many Tenn gun owners. You should have heard the handwringing of many of the guys at the Club. Predictions of wild west drunken bar shootings, bad public image, set back our gun rights, just no need for it... on and on... much the same negativity and fear seen here. It's been three years since Guns in Bars was passed. We're doing fine.

Didn't mean to get so far off track, but I think many gun owners suffered for so long in America that many of them are frightened to move forward for fear of losing the 2A scraps they have been tossed in the last 25 years. There's a lot still to do.

 

[hatt]

Not in Arkansas because we have no restrictions in what we carry where it's legal. It is not legal in Arkansas to walk into Walmart, Target or any other public place, State Park, or Federal Park using open carry of any weapon so I use concealed carry where it's legal. My fear is some dumb *** in another state like Texas will ruin my concealed carry rights in stores I can now carry in.


Just like what they are doing in Texas because National Store Chains make rules USA wide. So when they get lots of customer push back for open carry in Texas they ban all guns from the stores in all the states.

If you think that is a leap forward in our cause I don't.

What national corporations do is way way way down on the list of things I care about. I asked this in another thread and you seem like a good candidate to ask as well. What other Rights of your require corporate approval?

Maybe FEAR is at the bottom of the anti-OC gun folks.

 

[cyphertext]

I disagree. I respect property rights, but Property Rights do not trump Texas State Law. Texas State Law says they have a
legal way to stop anyone from carrying and specifies the two
signs that can be used, the size of the lettering etc. So if
Target respects Texas State Law and does not want me to carry
they certainly can do that.....

TexasArmed, again, I know the law... Again, this is not about if it is enforceable or not. I agree with you that the CEO's letter is not valid notification per Texas law, but that still does not change the fact that they have stated that they do not want firearms in their store.

Had they said "Please do not bring unconcealed firearms into our store... it scares the moms that see them", I wouldn't think anymore about it. But the request was "But starting today we will also respectfully request that guests not bring firearms to Target – even in communities where it is permitted by law."

Now, here is the kicker... they made this "request", so the OC Community should back off and not push the issue any further, right? Well, here is the leader of Open Carry Tarrant County.

Sonic asked folks not to openly carry at their restaurants...

When you ignore a businesses request, and flaunt it, don't be surprised if it does, in fact, become a legally enforceable requirement. Of course he changed from long gun to black powder to be less conspicuous, but this even confuses the issue more since now he is carrying a handgun to demonstrate against being able to carry a handgun...

So Phil, Hatt, et al, are these guys still fighting the good fight, or are they creating issues for all of us? Images are from Kory Watkins facebook page. Leader of Open Carry Tarrant County, and running for office...

 

[ladder13]

What it won't be good enough for is Bloomberg and his henchMoms. They will never stop. These people are the villians...........................

...................................................Didn't mean to get so far off track, but I think many gun owners suffered for so long in America that many of them are frightened to move forward for fear of losing the 2A scraps they have been tossed in the last 25 years. There's a lot still to do.

It appears many gun owners suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[TexasArmed]

TexasArmed, again, I know the law... Again, this is not about if it is enforceable or not. I agree with you that the CEO's letter is not valid notification per Texas law, but that still does not change the fact that they have stated that they do not want firearms in their store.

Had they said "Please do not bring unconcealed firearms into our store... it scares the moms that see them", I wouldn't think anymore about it. But the request was "But starting today we will also respectfully request that guests not bring firearms to Target – even in communities where it is permitted by law."

Now, here is the kicker... they made this "request", so the OC Community should back off and not push the issue any further, right? Well, here is the leader of Open Carry Tarrant County.

Sonic asked folks not to openly carry at their restaurants...

When you ignore a businesses request, and flaunt it, don't be surprised if it does, in fact, become a legally enforceable requirement. Of course he changed from long gun to black powder to be less conspicuous, but this even confuses the issue more since now he is carrying a handgun to demonstrate against being able to carry a handgun...

...

I am not flaunting it when I refuse to allow any business to
enforce a legally unenforceable sign. Texas passed this law
for a reason to remove any doubt about what is legally required or not. Anything else is a suggestion. Just because of their
fight with Open Carry folks, I refuse to allow that to compel me
to endanger myself. Till I see a 30.06 sign or a 51 percent sign I will carry concealed. No other state can lecture Texas
about property rights, our state is one of the few states that
permit the protection of policy with deadly force during the
night time. I refuse to negotiate or compromise my right
of self defense with someone that's in some kind of power
contest with a certain sector of the public and I refuse to be
drawn into the open carry issue. Point is they will never
know I am carrying unless it did become necessary for
me to protect my life in their store. And I am certain that
they would try and escape liability if I were unarmed and
a victim of a criminal in their store. By the way property rights just don't give them an exemption from the State Laws.

Let me suggest, a reason why they have not put up the
30.06 sign. Possibly one of the managers or owners may
in fact be carrying, or some of their good old boy buddies
are allowed. In other words some cliché. Just speculation
you understand. I have no chains on my feet, and I will
shop elsewhere when I see a legally enforceable sign. I
won't be a part of any special cliché that gets a right to
carry in their store just because the owner lets certain folks
carry and not others.

I think they continue to want everyone to keep shopping with
them. That's their problem. I personally do not care if they are
any other business in America goes belly up. I routinely buy
from foreign suppliers rather than shop at a shopping mall that
has a 30.06 sign. Some stores in that mall are now on the brink
of bankruptcy. Not my problem I owe them nothing.

Businesses and customers are a mutual thing. I obey they law.
I expect the business to obey the law. Want me not to carry,
post a legally enforceable sign.

 

[cyphertext]

What national corporations do is way way way down on the list of things I care about. I asked this in another thread and you seem like a good candidate to ask as well. What other Rights of your require corporate approval?

Maybe FEAR is at the bottom of the anti-OC gun folks.

I answered you in the other thread, so I'll answer here too...

Many of your rights are restricted on private property. National chain restaurants and stores are private property. They have every right to tell you that you are not allowed to carry on their property.

Do you have the right to assemble on private property against the wishes of the property owner? Do you have the right to practice your religion on the private property of another who asks you not to?

Your rights do not outweigh the rights of another, especially on their own little piece of America.

 

[keith44spl]

Well, here is the leader of Open Carry Tarrant County.

Sonic asked folks not to openly carry at their restaurants...

Images are from Kory Watkins facebook page. Leader of Open Carry Tarrant County, and running for office...

Well, that's jest sad.........That's not a goin to town holster.

That young man missed the class on how to dress around a well presented sidearm.

Also, a Colt Pocket Police smaller percussion pistol in a nice floral carved Brill style
of leather would have been a better choice.

More importantly, what's up with that hat?

Sometimes, I jest shake my head in dis-belief at the attire some folks wear in public.

Jest sad.


All My Best,
Dave


God Bless Texas

Hook em Horns


.