I finally acquired enough ammo to go to the range. My first trip this year. Fired a couple of hundred rounds thru my DW Guardian .45. Shot pretty good, surprised myself. Then I fired 15 or 20 shots with the .38sp AirWeight. Couldn't hit anything. Target was at 10 to 12 feet. I realize the gun is a close-in weapon, and I do pocket carry it quite a bit. Recommendations for better results or another snubbie maybe? Am I expecting too much? Laser grips didn't seem to help, and it does have an Apex trigger kit installed.
J frame not fun
- Thread starter oldnfat
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Andy Griffith
Member
I'd try a couple of things first....
Get a full length hogue grip to practice with- not a boot grip.
If you are using "carry" ammo right now, I'd instead try some mild .38's- preferably wadcutters.
Is the laser sighted in?
Get a full length hogue grip to practice with- not a boot grip.
If you are using "carry" ammo right now, I'd instead try some mild .38's- preferably wadcutters.
Is the laser sighted in?
First thing to determine would be was it you or the gun.
I don't think you were expecting too much from the gun.
How were the first couple shots with it ?
I don't think you were expecting too much from the gun.
How were the first couple shots with it ?
Maximumbob54
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 7,202
- Reaction score
- 1,928
Try some 158gr ammo. Check the ammo in the gun if using lead bullets though. Some of them jump crimp during recoil. All steel J's don't tend to do this but the aluminum frame J's are known for it.
spad124
Member
+ 1 on Andy's comments. DA revolvers are incredibly reliable but take practice. I recently bought one of the Aussie 10-8s Buds had for sale. It came with magna grips. All my shots with the magnas went to the left. I changed the grips to no-name target style grips I picked up for $10 and now everything is in the 10 ring at 10 yards DA.
Also, I suggest turning off the laser and using the sights SA while dry - firing. Watch where your front sight ends up. It shouldn't move. Then dry fire DA. Again the front sight should not move, but probably will. Get some snap caps and practice. I dry fire DA 25-50 times a day very deliberately to build muscle memory. This is one case where a little each day beats a lot occasionally by substantial margin.
Also, I suggest turning off the laser and using the sights SA while dry - firing. Watch where your front sight ends up. It shouldn't move. Then dry fire DA. Again the front sight should not move, but probably will. Get some snap caps and practice. I dry fire DA 25-50 times a day very deliberately to build muscle memory. This is one case where a little each day beats a lot occasionally by substantial margin.
Get some snap caps and practice. I dry fire DA 25-50 times a day very deliberately to build muscle memory. This is one case where a little each day beats a lot occasionally by substantial margin
Great advice right there if you don't already
Great advice right there if you don't already
The OP mentions finally getting some ammo together to go shooting, indicating a lag between range sessions. I shot very poorly my first session after a 5 month layoff. Even went back to a .22 to 're-calibrate' my DA skills. It worked.
Don't know how well the OP normally shoots, but a certified instructor could help. Something as small as not following through on the DA trigger can throw shots off. And the laser dot sights do not guarantee good groups. The shooter must use proper technique to do that.
J-frames are great little guns, but they require some work to use them effectively. And try the bigger grip suggested by another poster.
Kaaskop49
J-hound extraordinaire
Don't know how well the OP normally shoots, but a certified instructor could help. Something as small as not following through on the DA trigger can throw shots off. And the laser dot sights do not guarantee good groups. The shooter must use proper technique to do that.
J-frames are great little guns, but they require some work to use them effectively. And try the bigger grip suggested by another poster.
Kaaskop49
J-hound extraordinaire
oneounceload
Member
I found I had to use a different hold, more high up than I normally use, to get the gun to print on paper and not high right (am LH). Also did better using the knuckle joint as opposed to the finger pad with the trigger pull. You might need to alter something in that regard
2ndAmendmentNut
Member
The limited sight radius and generally heavy recoil associated with the J frames will always make shooting them a humbling experience. Personally I would practice with whatever grip you intend to carry it with. Full sized grips are great but sort of defeat the purpose of having a small compact gun. As others have suggested dry firing practice and the lightest recoiling 38sp ammo you can find will help.
66Park
Member
First, make sure the gun fits your hand. Find a set of grips that accomplishes that. Second, J frames can be very ammo sensitive. For me, 158 grain bullets shoot to point of aim, and 130 grain bullets shoot drastically low. Third, pay really close attention to marksmanship fundamentals. Small errors are greatly magnified by the short barrel and small size of the gun. One thing I have found with J frames is that if I use the highest hold possible, my trigger finger enters the trigger guard at a downward angle, which makes a straight back trigger press difficult. Accuracy improves for me if I grip the gun so that my trigger finger enters the trigger guard level, which necessitates a bit lower hold on the gun. The specific mechanics of what will work will vary depending on the person and how the gun fits your hand, but experiment until you find what works. If you pay attention to the fundamentals and work out a proper grip, stance, sight picture, trigger pull, pay attention to your breathing, and focus intensely on the front sight, if your ammo shoots to poa with your gun, you'll work it out.
Last edited:
sac-gunslinger
Member
In sports we call this "follow through" and is vitally important in shooting pistols, especially when shooting double action or some pistol that has control challenges. We can, and should, check to see where our sights align when live firing. But it is most instructive when dry firing.
gtmtnbiker98
Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2007
- Messages
- 122
- Reaction score
- 83
Don't blame the gun! First time to the range this year, and it's September? Now, do we really have to tell you what's wrong?
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2005
- Messages
- 8,020
- Reaction score
- 7,101
The J frames shoot fine out of a rest. What I mean is that they are intrinsically accurate.
That said, they are considerably more difficult to shoot than a pocket 9mm, such as the Shield. The Shield absorbs recoil better, holds more rounds and is, in my opinion, easier to shoot.
The only solution is more practice. A "trigger job," as will undoubtedly be suggested by well meaning folks, will make reliable ignition less reliable and will not change the outcome enough to make taking a chance with reliability worth the risk.
Either get feeble ammo, such as target wadcutter; or, get a different pocket pistol - one that absorbs recoil during operation with slide motion and a recoil spring.
When the revolver hurts to shoot and has a heavy trigger, it makes for bad shooting.
That said, they are considerably more difficult to shoot than a pocket 9mm, such as the Shield. The Shield absorbs recoil better, holds more rounds and is, in my opinion, easier to shoot.
The only solution is more practice. A "trigger job," as will undoubtedly be suggested by well meaning folks, will make reliable ignition less reliable and will not change the outcome enough to make taking a chance with reliability worth the risk.
Either get feeble ammo, such as target wadcutter; or, get a different pocket pistol - one that absorbs recoil during operation with slide motion and a recoil spring.
When the revolver hurts to shoot and has a heavy trigger, it makes for bad shooting.
Last edited:
I just got back from a 150 round range session w/my 442. When I'm going to shoot that much the grips are changed from the small wood magnas w/a grip adapter to large rubber targets. I practice from 3, 5 & 7 yds holding at the 6 o'clock position. The further away the target the slower my cadence. With the exception of a few flyers as I got tired all my shots were in the black (standard bulls eye target). Near the end I replaced the magnas and grip adapter and ran 10 rounds of +P at 3 yds. rapid fire (this is how I carry).
My hand is sore but my confidence is up. Keep up the practice, these are great little carry guns but require frequent practice.
My hand is sore but my confidence is up. Keep up the practice, these are great little carry guns but require frequent practice.
Rpg
Member
J frames are 'expert's' revolvers. They are inherently accurate but require lots of practice.
If you have a laser sight, get rid of it. You're looking at the wrong thing.
Front sight, front sight, front sight.
Lots of dry fire: ninety dry fire rounds for every one live fire.
Use 148 gr WC or 158 gr standard velocity ammo.
Forget the 'gee whiz' stuff! Balistic tables and pretty pictures of nalistic gel are fun to look at while on the 'throne'. Leave them there.
Aside from much more noise, muzzle blast and recoil, you get little except the gratitude of the ammo manufacturers. Unless you're independently wealthy or have a federal grant, you aren't likely to shoot enough of it to reliably hit things.
Hitting what you shoot at is what counts. Missing with 100 more fps won't help.
If you have a laser sight, get rid of it. You're looking at the wrong thing.
Front sight, front sight, front sight.
Lots of dry fire: ninety dry fire rounds for every one live fire.
Use 148 gr WC or 158 gr standard velocity ammo.
Forget the 'gee whiz' stuff! Balistic tables and pretty pictures of nalistic gel are fun to look at while on the 'throne'. Leave them there.
Aside from much more noise, muzzle blast and recoil, you get little except the gratitude of the ammo manufacturers. Unless you're independently wealthy or have a federal grant, you aren't likely to shoot enough of it to reliably hit things.
Hitting what you shoot at is what counts. Missing with 100 more fps won't help.
I have only been to the range twice since I got my 340pd. First time I fired 38s and was very happy. Then I fired 14 rnds gold dot 357 mag. That was more than enough and my shots were high and to the right. So I carry with 38s now. I just received my xs standard dot and will be installing it this weekend. I guess my point is get some really low recoil ammo like the 125gr 38s that I used and give it a try. I think you will like it. I would rather carry with something that I can hit with even if it isn't as powerful.
The first time I shot mdl Mdl.36 I had no idea what to expect.
I am not that good of a shot,as I practice very little but I do know the fundamentals.
I had it loaded with standard 38cal Round nose lead.
I line up at a target 15 feet away and nailed it dead on all 5 times???
I then moved it out to 24 feet and I continued to hit in the black for all 50 rounds in that box, all shots were fired single action with the exception of the last 10 rounds. those rounds fired DA were on the paper but slightly high and to the right still in the black but forming there own group.
The Mdl.36 with 2 in barrel shot as well that day as my pre Mdl. 10 with a 6 in barrel and that gun is a tack driver.
I learned over the years if you expect too much, have had too much coffee, are tired or the range is loud and busy that all these things can affect my shooting ability and often do.
However I find its always better to blame the gun.
I am not that good of a shot,as I practice very little but I do know the fundamentals.
I had it loaded with standard 38cal Round nose lead.
I line up at a target 15 feet away and nailed it dead on all 5 times???
I then moved it out to 24 feet and I continued to hit in the black for all 50 rounds in that box, all shots were fired single action with the exception of the last 10 rounds. those rounds fired DA were on the paper but slightly high and to the right still in the black but forming there own group.
The Mdl.36 with 2 in barrel shot as well that day as my pre Mdl. 10 with a 6 in barrel and that gun is a tack driver.
I learned over the years if you expect too much, have had too much coffee, are tired or the range is loud and busy that all these things can affect my shooting ability and often do.
However I find its always better to blame the gun.
Some great, not to be overlooked remarks:
I have never fired a Shield but I can shoot circles around my Kel-Tec pocket 9mm with any J-frame I own. I can probably pass the Texas CHL test with any J-frame I own, too.
Exactly!!!! What can the gun say back?
I don't know that they're "expert's revolvers" but they do require getting used to. There is one secondary issue to consider - even with plain .38 caliber ammunition - J-frames are supposed to be carried a lot but not necessarily fired a lot. You do need to learn how to use one, how to aim it, how to deal with it's recoil. But you don't need to shoot hundreds of rounds to do that and you certainly don't want to abuse your hands by shooting hundreds of rounds in one session.
Follow-up matter - If you're not used to shooting fixed sight revolvers like J-frames you can easily make mistakes in determining how and where to line up that front sight in the "hog wallow trough" that is called the rear sight. Adjusting that over the course of a few cylinders-full will teach you a great deal about where your gun shoots and why.
J-frames ARE accurate if you do your part.
***GRJ***
I have never fired a Shield but I can shoot circles around my Kel-Tec pocket 9mm with any J-frame I own. I can probably pass the Texas CHL test with any J-frame I own, too.
Exactly!!!! What can the gun say back?
I don't know that they're "expert's revolvers" but they do require getting used to. There is one secondary issue to consider - even with plain .38 caliber ammunition - J-frames are supposed to be carried a lot but not necessarily fired a lot. You do need to learn how to use one, how to aim it, how to deal with it's recoil. But you don't need to shoot hundreds of rounds to do that and you certainly don't want to abuse your hands by shooting hundreds of rounds in one session.
Follow-up matter - If you're not used to shooting fixed sight revolvers like J-frames you can easily make mistakes in determining how and where to line up that front sight in the "hog wallow trough" that is called the rear sight. Adjusting that over the course of a few cylinders-full will teach you a great deal about where your gun shoots and why.
J-frames ARE accurate if you do your part.
***GRJ***
357-RevolverGuy
Member
J-frame's take a lot of practice to get good results at distances past a few yards. It took me month's to get it on target when I first started shooting one. I never use the sights much. These tend to be more point and shoot. They were at one time referred to as "belly guns", referencing the close proximity they were intended for. Work on your grip and arm extension.
I'll also note that the all stainless J-frame's like the model 60 and 640 tend to handle recoil better. I use to own a model 60 and almost always shot it better than the 642 airweight.
It's possible to shoot them with amazing accuracy. Just look at Hickok45
http://youtu.be/xgl8VuX0LuY
I'll also note that the all stainless J-frame's like the model 60 and 640 tend to handle recoil better. I use to own a model 60 and almost always shot it better than the 642 airweight.
It's possible to shoot them with amazing accuracy. Just look at Hickok45
http://youtu.be/xgl8VuX0LuY
RGMoore
Member
As others have said, it takes LOTS of practice to be accurate with a snubbie. I bought a bullet mold and load 148gr WC over about 3.5gr of Unique and shoot a lot. Last time I qualified for my CCW I had the shooters on each side of me leaning over to see what I was shooting to produce those little tiny groups
Dry firing is great practice and live fire with target loads will get your groups looking much better. Snubbies are very accurate but take some mastery.
Dry firing is great practice and live fire with target loads will get your groups looking much better. Snubbies are very accurate but take some mastery.
Ranger514
Member
It might take an "expert" to shoot tiny groups at 15-25 yards with a snubby J Frame, but it wasn't designed to be a target pistol. It's a great point shooting defensive revolver. I can slow-fire aim and shoot a 2-inch group freestanding at 7 yards. At the same distance, however, I can rapid-fire, point-shoot a full cylinder center mass into the five ring (7 1/2" X11 1/2" oval) of a man sized Transitional Target in a matter of seconds. That's all I require, and that is what the snubbie was designed to do.
I'm no good....
I'm no good with DA and short small guns but I hope one day to alleviate that in the future. Hickok45 on Youtube is my hero and my nemesis.
I'm no good with DA and short small guns but I hope one day to alleviate that in the future. Hickok45 on Youtube is my hero and my nemesis.
shep854
Member
Actually, once you get used to it, a J-frame is a ton of fun to shoot!! Consider it a challenge and master that little blaster!! 
Rpg
Member
^^^^^^^
Everything he said except you don't need snap caps and lasers. (Unless you can't see the front sight because of the coin!).
Front sight, front sight, front sight!
Last edited:
SgtLumpy
Member
J frame snubs are highly accurate. All my movie and TV detective heroes could shoot the gun out of the hand of the thug from the hip.
Seriously...They're just as accurate as any other gun. Practice with it.
Sgt Lumpy
Seriously...They're just as accurate as any other gun. Practice with it.
Sgt Lumpy
Mister_Smith
Member
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2012
- Messages
- 72
- Reaction score
- 51
oldnfat, I too have a J frame with a laser sight, Crimson Trace 405's I believe. I would sit at home, about 10 feet or so from a target, and I would dry fire the gun. The red dot would move SUBSTANTIALLY with every trigger pull, nearly moving off a head sized target at living room range.
The heavy double action trigger pull of a J frame is that heavy that it changes your point of aim substantially with every trigger pull.
I discovered it takes LOTS of dry fire practice to correct this and even then improvement is limited.
At a 25 yard target, I noticed that pulling the trigger would move the red dot entirely off a man sized target at that range during dry fire practice.
I never tried an Apex kit but I cannot imagine it would improve the trigger pull enough, much practice is still necessary.
Try living room dry fire practice with your J frame, the laser on, you may be surprised by what you discover.
Also, do a search for Jerry Miculek's video on how to shoot a Smith J frame, and his recommended hand hold/positioning. It greatly improved my J frame shooting, I was able to keep nearly all shots on a man sized target at 25 yards with a .22 J frame, and though it wasn't impressive, with my .357 340 shooting full house magnum loads, I could actually keep two or three shots out of five on paper at 25 yards! That set up is NOT a 25 yard set up, but unfortunately my range refuses to have targets any closer than 25 yards.
As somebody already mentioned, try light target loads so you can focus on technique without the distraction of dealing with heavy recoil.
Practice practice practice practice, and with a little help from your friends on this forum, I believe you may begin to like your little J frame a bit more!
The heavy double action trigger pull of a J frame is that heavy that it changes your point of aim substantially with every trigger pull.
I discovered it takes LOTS of dry fire practice to correct this and even then improvement is limited.
At a 25 yard target, I noticed that pulling the trigger would move the red dot entirely off a man sized target at that range during dry fire practice.
I never tried an Apex kit but I cannot imagine it would improve the trigger pull enough, much practice is still necessary.
Try living room dry fire practice with your J frame, the laser on, you may be surprised by what you discover.
Also, do a search for Jerry Miculek's video on how to shoot a Smith J frame, and his recommended hand hold/positioning. It greatly improved my J frame shooting, I was able to keep nearly all shots on a man sized target at 25 yards with a .22 J frame, and though it wasn't impressive, with my .357 340 shooting full house magnum loads, I could actually keep two or three shots out of five on paper at 25 yards! That set up is NOT a 25 yard set up, but unfortunately my range refuses to have targets any closer than 25 yards.
As somebody already mentioned, try light target loads so you can focus on technique without the distraction of dealing with heavy recoil.
Practice practice practice practice, and with a little help from your friends on this forum, I believe you may begin to like your little J frame a bit more!
Last edited:
Boogsawaste
Member
As these guys said, practice! I've had 3 "j" frames now. A Taurus 85, bg38, and the real j frame, 642. Wasn't very good with the Taurus (was my first gun, shot low right, even using SA), right on with the bg38, and low right with the 642. Later I figured I shot the bg38 well because there were a lot of complaints about them shooting high left, making my normal low right shots end up on target 
.
With practice I am able to usually get all 5 shots from the 642 on a 12X12 target at 15 yards. Its obvious I'm not a target shooter, but it's an improvement I'm proud of. Besides finding the proper hold for me, what helped a LOT was getting a huge sheet of cardboard and putting that up behind my target. That way I could actually see where I was hitting when I was off the paper.
. With practice I am able to usually get all 5 shots from the 642 on a 12X12 target at 15 yards. Its obvious I'm not a target shooter, but it's an improvement I'm proud of. Besides finding the proper hold for me, what helped a LOT was getting a huge sheet of cardboard and putting that up behind my target. That way I could actually see where I was hitting when I was off the paper.
Pisgah
Member
I struggled for many years to master DA shooting of small-frame revolvers. One day at the range I met an older gentleman who introduced himself during a break to change targets, and he told me he was a retired police officer who had shot revolvers competitively for 30 years. He had been observing my less-than-stellar shooting, and asked if I would mind getting a few tips. Mama didn't raise no fools, and I gratefully accepted his offer.
In 15 minutes, he instructed me in 3 critical areas:
1. Grip -- with a small, lightweight revolver, you should be gripping the gun like grim death. Any small-frame revolver of significant chambering is going to buck violently, and a bullet must be launched from a stable platform in order to hit its target;
2. Trigger -- should not be engaged with the tip of the finger, but at a point somewhere between the center of the first pad of the finger and the first joint. Find where it works for you. The trigger pull should not be "staged" in any fashion; rather, it should be a quick, smooth, straight-thru stroke, with absolutely no hesitation;
3. Sights -- front sight should be on-target throughout the trigger stroke, and complete concentration should be focused on keeping it there.
Dry-fire is essential in mastering these elements. Make SURE the gun is empty, pick a small target, and work on keeping that sight locked on-target. Working on improving grip strength pays dividends, too.
Before your next session, do some dry-fire practice keeping these thing in mind. You may be amazed by the improvement, as I was.
In 15 minutes, he instructed me in 3 critical areas:
1. Grip -- with a small, lightweight revolver, you should be gripping the gun like grim death. Any small-frame revolver of significant chambering is going to buck violently, and a bullet must be launched from a stable platform in order to hit its target;
2. Trigger -- should not be engaged with the tip of the finger, but at a point somewhere between the center of the first pad of the finger and the first joint. Find where it works for you. The trigger pull should not be "staged" in any fashion; rather, it should be a quick, smooth, straight-thru stroke, with absolutely no hesitation;
3. Sights -- front sight should be on-target throughout the trigger stroke, and complete concentration should be focused on keeping it there.
Dry-fire is essential in mastering these elements. Make SURE the gun is empty, pick a small target, and work on keeping that sight locked on-target. Working on improving grip strength pays dividends, too.
Before your next session, do some dry-fire practice keeping these thing in mind. You may be amazed by the improvement, as I was.
As mentioned by others, snubbies take lotsa practice, both dry fire and live fire.
But before all that practice you need to make sure you're gripping the gun correctly and that the gun has the correct grip for you. My 442 with the boot grips did not fit my hand and I couldn't get a proper grip on it. I put Pachmayr compact grips on it, they fit much better and they're still concealable.
I do have a laser but I use that more for dry fire practice than an actual aiming tool. I just put the red dot on something across the room and keep it there while I pull the trigger. I suprised myself and others by outshooting a buddy at 25 yards. He had a .45 Springfield DX Tactical and I was shooting my 442.
J frame Snubbies are great little guns and it's worth the time and effort to shoot them accurately.
But before all that practice you need to make sure you're gripping the gun correctly and that the gun has the correct grip for you. My 442 with the boot grips did not fit my hand and I couldn't get a proper grip on it. I put Pachmayr compact grips on it, they fit much better and they're still concealable.
I do have a laser but I use that more for dry fire practice than an actual aiming tool. I just put the red dot on something across the room and keep it there while I pull the trigger. I suprised myself and others by outshooting a buddy at 25 yards. He had a .45 Springfield DX Tactical and I was shooting my 442.
J frame Snubbies are great little guns and it's worth the time and effort to shoot them accurately.
