J-Frames and 25yard qualifications

[3rdgeargrndrr]

Its nice to be where you are and have all the ideas and options. Out of all my options I went back to carrying a 638.
It is not the gun that cannot shoot at 25yds. Its the shooter.
The sights on a K6 are nice and I love those guns rock solid lockup but the aluminum j frames have never gotten loose or given me any doubt they are less reliable.
I pocket carry my j frames. Steel feels like a boat anchor to me in this regard.
Mind you, in a holster on a belt, carry what you want, weight matters less.
I carry a full size 1911 on Sundays. Different set of needs.
The more you carry the more you'll ll have a good idea of what works and doesnt work.
Leave money in your wallet for the rest of the buy in- holsters, ammo, carry belts and new pants. And congrats on getting your rights, safety and freedoms back

 

[charlie sherrill]

The problem with the guns you've listed is the exposed hammer: they are a mess to pocket carry.

The guns that offer a hammer and pocket carry ability are the various shrouded hammer guns such as the 638.

Using wadcutter ammo is a great idea! It's comfortable to shoot and performs very well.

The ammo I carry in J frames is Federal HST .38 special 130 grain JHP wadcutters. Maybe a little slow to reload but you shouldn't have to. Years ago I watched an autopsy on a similar round. It tears stuff up.

 

[RETDOE]

J frame

All the guns, ammo and individuals on this thread are capable of performing all tasks required if the proper training is involved. Training, Training, Training, seek out not just a good shooter but a professional instructor that has snub revolver in his or her repertoire. Snub revolver culture is making a come back and many are just discovering its blessing in CCW. It is challenging, it does require some dedication but it is fun as **** and will make you a better shooter all around. Just one such resource, snubtraining.com

 

[OLDSTER]

3-5-10-15 yards to become proficient with short barreled "J" frame. But why waste the time and ammo at 25 yards ?? Just asking for a friend.

 

[Mister Heavyhand]

Model 49

Hey Hey Y'all
Smith and Wesson Model 49 for the win.
Got glasses? Get a set with half your correction and focus on the front sight.
You will hit what you are looking at.
God Bless,
HH

 

[rockquarry]

3-5-10-15 yards to become proficient with short barreled "J" frame. But why waste the time and ammo at 25 yards ?? Just asking for a friend.

Because it will help you to become a better shooter; many don't have an interest in that and are not willing to put in the necessary time and effort to become more proficient. Your choice and that's fine.

These are certainly difficult guns for most to master at twenty-yards because it requires much of the shooter in the way of paying close attention to basic shooting skills. A big benefit in becoming a skillful shooter at 25 yards with a snubnose J-frame .38 is that your proficiency with other handguns will improve noticeably.

Most of us do pretty well at short distances with a snubnose J-frame because our shortcomings are well hidden when shooting up close, but they're naked at 25 yards.

 

[sigp220.45]

Because it will help you to become a better shooter; many don't have an interest in that and are not willing to put in the necessary time and effort to become more proficient. Your choice and that's fine.

These are certainly difficult guns for most to master at twenty-yards because it requires much of the shooter in the way of paying close attention to basic shooting skills. A big benefit in becoming a skillful shooter at 25 yards with a snubnose J-frame .38 is that your proficiency with other handguns will improve noticeably.

Most shooters do pretty well at short distances with a snubnose J-frame because our shortcomings are well masked up close. Not so at 25 yards.

Exactly. My local indoor range is only 20 yards, but usually my target is all alone down there. I know if I can hit a target at 20 yards then I can hit it at 3. The reverse is not true for many shooters.

I've had people say: You'll never have to shoot a person that far away. I usually say I'm not shooting people today, just targets.

My favorite is: I can't see the holes way down there!

The reality is a vanishingly small number of people will ever have to shoot anyone at 20 yards or 10 yards or 3 yards. But the number is not zero.

I'm glad some places still require a modicum of skill to pass a qualification. I could pass my LEOSA qual here with a pocketful of rocks.

 

[rockquarry]

Exactly. My local indoor range is only 20 yards, but usually my target is all alone down there. I know if I can hit a target at 20 yards then I can hit it at 3. The reverse is not true for many shooters.

I've had people say: You'll never have to shoot a person that far away. I usually say I'm not shooting people today, just targets.

My favorite is: I can't see the holes way down there!

The reality is a vanishingly small number of people will ever have to shoot anyone at 20 yards or 10 yards or 3 yards. But the number is not zero.

I'm glad some places still require a modicum of skill to pass a qualification. I could pass my LEOSA qual here with a pocketful of rocks.

I don't know if the "you'll never have to shoot a person that far away" gunfighting mentality is an unhealthy fixation completely opposed to improving one's shooting skills or just an excuse not to better their performance.

There's enjoyment for some in target shooting and competing against oneself and becoming a better shooter at the same time. It's fine to prepare for a gunfight, but narrowing one's focus to only that aspect of shooting can get pretty dull quickly.

"I can't see the holes way down there" is what spotting scopes are for.

It's good that we have choices.

 

[jeeps]

A few years ago I shot the OHIO OPODA qualification 25 shots double action with the SW 640 pro. Perfect score 25. one hand both hands and two hand contact to 25 yards. No single action leave that for the cowboys.

 

[Tellicomoto]

Cylinder & Slide work:

Went from shooting 18" low and right at 15 yards, to point of aim. Nice tight group now that I can see the sights. Still haven't found a replacement set of grips I like for it.

 

[rockquarry]

Cylinder & Slide work:

Went from shooting 18" low and right at 15 yards, to point of aim. Nice tight group now that I can see the sights. Still haven't found a replacement set of grips I like for it.

Lots of aftermarket stocks will work better but most are a lot larger than the standard stocks and reduce the concealment factor these guns were designed for. I've found it easier to practice often and get used to the factory stocks. They're not bad once you become accustomed to them.

If I really needed larger stocks, making for a larger overall carrying package, it makes more sense to go with a K-frame snubnose.

 

[Tellicomoto]

Lots of aftermarket stocks will work better but most are a lot larger than the standard stocks and reduce the concealment factor these guns were designed for. I've found it easier to practice often and get used to the factory stocks. They're not bad once you become accustomed to them.

If I really needed larger stocks, making for a larger overall carrying package, it makes more sense to go with a K-frame snubnose.

I got it from the previous owner with Pachmayr finger groove grips on it. They were too big for pocket carry. When it came back from C&S, I tried a nice set of VZ Boot grips. They looked great; but, for me they didn't point naturally. I had to bend my wrist down to line up the sights. These ugly stocks on it work fine. They're just an eyesore, LOL. I'll probably get some real stag grips for it after the holidays.

Edit:

Looks like I might have found a pair of stags in the Classifieds here.

 

[biku324]

Hard to beat factory j-frame grips with a Tyler T-grip insert. No real increase in size, weight, or concealability. Carried my M49 like that for decades as a back-up.

 

[RetDet]

Accurate shots at 25 yards and even further are entirely possible at 25 yards and beyond with any J Frame S&W. All that is necessary is that you master the basics - excellent focus ON THE SIGHTS, proper grip and triggering, and watch that follow through.
If you do your part, the J Frame revolver, even with stock grips and no gunsmithing, will do a fine job of delivering scoring hits.
Before you spend extra money on grips or other upgrades, so called, trust the S&W engineers and good marksmanship basics.

 

[rockquarry]

Accurate shots at 25 yards and even further are entirely possible at 25 yards and beyond with any J Frame S&W. All that is necessary is that you master the basics - excellent focus ON THE SIGHTS, proper grip and triggering, and watch that follow through.
If you do your part, the J Frame revolver, even with stock grips and no gunsmithing, will do a fine job of delivering scoring hits.
Before you spend extra money on grips or other upgrades, so called, trust the S&W engineers and good marksmanship basics.

Very well said.

 

[WCCPHD]

I carry under LEOSA as a retired and current (reserve) law enforcement officer. We have been required to qualify with every gun we carry at least once per year, both day and night since the early 1980's. Daylight qualification requires standing and prone rounds at 25 yards. There is no allowance made for barrel length or caliber.

When I started in 1979 (full time) the state required qualification out to 50 yards, but at that time no night (dim light) qualification was required.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Dutch, a few things. I've been a Smith J&K frame fan since I was first issued a #10 in 1973. Been carrying a J frame BUG ever since. But, you are going to be very happy with that K6s. They have the best factor trigger in the business. I've been looking for the 3"DOA myself. Local dealers won't even take a deposit.

The thumb on the hammer in the pocket does help a draw. But my carry is the 442 because with no hammer you can shoot it in the pocket, five times if you had too. A hammer could get hung up.

And that talk about the 158gr. LRN. B/S what a **** load. I had to carry them back in the day. Only advantage was a easy reload. Otherwise they bounced off windshields and afro combs stuck in the hair. Would punch through the outer panel of a car door then get stuck in the insulation.

Finally, shooting a Q at 25 yards is easy, just a little practice. I do it D/A with my Smiths. The Kimber once you are used to the trigger will center mass all day long. What a great gun.

 

[One Holer]

Shot my S&W 637 last weekend. 158 gr SWC handloads. Shot 11 shots at 25 yards scoring 8 hits in the 8" shoot-and-see target. I was pretty happy with that considering the rudimentry sights.

 

[Kentucky Dave]

Cylinder & Slide work:

Went from shooting 18" low and right at 15 yards, to point of aim. Nice tight group now that I can see the sights. Still haven't found a replacement set of grips I like for it.

My old Bodyguard came with the small wooden grips like your and a set of Pachmyer's which were bigger than I liked. I found some Hogue grips ("Bantam") that are in-between size and I REALLY like them.

 

[oink]

I used to qualify with my model 60. I never failed to qualify but I didn't shoot a perfect score. Where I had to qualify the same as the duty gun it was a 60 round qualification. I did have a smith cut the rear notch a little wider to make it easier to properly acquire the target. I thought it helped quite a bit.

 

[mod57]

I shoot ALL my handguns at 25 yds routinely. Some times at 50. I only shoot at distances shorter than 25 if the range simply doesn't have the distance or a specific distance is required. Shooting at 25 yds is easy, at least it should be.

 

[edl]

After pressure from NJ firearms rights group, The NJ Association of Rifle and Pistol Clubs, the state has dropped the 25-Yard Target Distance, shooting from the kneeling position, and the timed fire from their CCW qualification. Some of the shooting time limits that they had were pretty short for an average person. For example at the 7 yard line they had to draw and fire 3 rounds in 4 seconds.

If you are taking the test with a revolver it needs to be fired double action. If you are shooting a D/A automatic the stings of fire must start with the gun in the D/A mode.

Here is a link to the current qualifications:
https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/CCARE_Protocol.pdf

 

[AJ]

After pressure from NJ firearms rights group, The NJ Association of Rifle and Pistol Clubs, the state has dropped the 25-Yard Target Distance, shooting from the kneeling position, and the timed fire from their CCW qualification. Some of the shooting time limits that they had were pretty short for an average person. For example at the 7 yard line they had to draw and fire 3 rounds in 4 seconds.

If you are taking the test with a revolver it needs to be fired double action. If you are shooting a D/A automatic the stings of fire must start with the gun in the D/A mode.

Here is a link to the current qualifications:
https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/CCARE_Protocol.pdf

When I was teaching at Naval Station Long Beach, Ca in the late 1980's, our detectives were not happy with me. All the DOD Police had to draw from holsters when they qualified. The detective's would show up with belt holsters for their J Frames. Well I knew they all carried in ankle holsters. So, I made them qualify from the ankle holsters.......they were smoked! Especially the 5'7" 250 pound detective who could not see his ankles! Also took the DOD Chief of Police's M36 from him as he could not qualify with it, he was ticked to have to wear a 4 inch S&W on a duty belt. That 36 was a status symbol to him.

 

[edl]

Requiring civilians to shoot from kneeling was a violation of the Americans with Disabilities act for anyone that had a physical limitation that prevented them from doing so.

I believe the original civilian shooting requirements were based on those of members of the NJ State Police. They have rigid and extensive training and standards that exceeds that of most NJ police departments. It was completely unrealistic to expect average civilians to meet those standards.

NJ has an anti-gun governor and many anti-gun politicians and administrators. The difficult test was a means of preventing average people from getting their CCW permits.

 

[AJ]

Requiring civilians to shoot from kneeling was a violation of the Americans with Disabilities act for anyone that had a physical limitation that prevented them from doing so.

I believe the original civilian shooting requirements were based on those of members of the NJ State Police. They have rigid and extensive training and standards that exceeds that of most NJ police departments. It was completely unrealistic to expect average civilians to meet those standards.

NJ has an anti-gun governor and many anti-gun politicians and administrators. The difficult test was a means of preventing average people from getting their CCW permits.

Could we just make NJ and Calif. islands?

 

[Jim Watson]

I shot the long form but without kneeling with my late Uncle's Charter Arms Pathfinder, double action for all strings. I dropped one shot at 15 and three at 25. 92%.
Note that you don't have to hit anything at 15 yards to pass with 80% on the short form.

 

[Walter Rego]

In order to qualify with a J frame as a CCW weapon in my county the requirement is to fire five shots at 15 yards, reload and fire five more at 10 yards, and reload and fire five more at 7 yards. You shoot the longer distances first. All shots have to be double action, fired standing and offhand.

The target is a standard B-27 silhouette. You have to keep 11 of the 15 shots within the seven scoring ring or less. There is no time limit although I imagine the instructor would stop the test if he thought the shooter was really struggling.

I have fired my Model 640 out to 25 yards and the mechanical accuracy is there but getting a good sight picture and shooting it double action are the limiting factors. At 7 yards there is no problem putting a cylinder full into the 8 ring and smaller. But as the range increases and under less than optimal lighting conditions the groups open up quickly.

 

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

My angle of the discussion...

I carry a 638. Polished action, spring kit, extended firing pin and plugged lock hole. Honestly, a 642 would have been just as well...maybe better. I really just kinda liked the shrouded hammer look and figgered it didn't hurt nuthin' so....chose that.

Grand irony is that I don't care a lick about thumb cocking it. I've shot all my double action revolvers enough that I no longer gain any real accuracy by single action.

I don't think ill of the exposed hammers, I just don't personally gain anything from that myself.

As far as wadcutters go, I'd be fine with them for an initial load, but I'd sure want something more round and easy to load in my speedloader/ speed strip.

On the pocket carry, I'll admit it's what I do most of the time with my J frame, but it has it's weak points. Primarily drawing from any position that doesn't have your legs directly under you. I figgered that one out while trying to draw from being seated i

On my gun, those Pachmayrs are a bit of a chonk, but I like the way they feel. Alaska is a constitutional carry state anyways, so I don't really need Special Agent 007 concealability, just a little discretion.

 

[Cal44]

I find my 3" j framed (m36, m60, and m37) will fit in the pocket of some of my cargo pants.

I use a Mika pocket holster specifically made f or a 3" J.

I have a set of Bianchi lightning grips, brand new in box I'd like to put to use

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

... All the DOD Police had to draw from holsters when they qualified. The detective's would show up with belt holsters for their J Frames. Well I knew they all carried in ankle holsters. So, I made them qualify from the ankle holsters...

DoD Police is a joke to begin with and ankle holsters were so 1960. JMHO after 40+ years as a LEO.