Jim Cirillo's Weapon Silhoutte Point Method

[RichardK]

Hello All,

Just finished reading the late Jim Cirillo's book, "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights: Lessons and Tales from a Modern Day Gunfighter".

In Chapter 7, he talks about his weapon silhoutte method of pointing a handgun versus active sighting. He advocated subliminal sighting instead of directly using the sights. He said using the silhoutte of the weapon worked optimally in poor light conditions (where the weapon sights could not be seen) and in shooting distances within 10 to 15 yards (with a closing threat).

I tried this at the range yesterday and seemed to spend as much time trying to line up the silhoutte of my gun as I would trying to line up the sights. I am trying to integrate Cirillo's weapon silhoutte pointing method with traditional point shooting methods. Maybe I am going about it wrong.

Has anyone else tried Cirillo's method and found it to work as an effective variation of point shooting?

Thank you in advance for your insights.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano, TX, USA

 

[Zebulon]

Hi Richard....I'm familiar with that approach from Jim. It was a "new" idea when it was offered in the '90's sometime. Never seemed to catch on, but I will say this. In actual reality, what we do in an actual shooting scenario might resemble this approach as much as any other. In other words, though many of us "train" and more do not, when the event takes place, your "style" will be never be able to be determined after the fact. Justification is the only criteria by which we will be judged, not how close to our shooting "model" we actually came. Under that kind of stress, I doubt we will be aware of much else than getting the job done.......To your point, it's as good as anything else.....Best, Zebulon

 

[NashvilleMike]

Some folks teach "point shooting" some teach "stress fire" or "target focus." I don't think things like that are easily taught with words or even pictures. It's like throwing a ball into a basket half a court away or hitting a golf ball. It takes a lot of actual practice.

 

[RichardK]

Hello Zebulon and Nashville Mike,

Mike, like you said, methods like this take lots of training on ranges that most of us do not have access to on a regular basis. Sad, but still true. There is only a very limited amount of shooting postures you can assume in a cramped indoor shooting booth or exposed outdoor table before you get "the tap".

Zebulon, well said. In an actual gunfight, you will do what has to be done to get the job done. And you probably won't be able to tell anybody after the incident what "method" you used to take down the threat. Interestingly, Cirillo said the same thing in many of the gunfights he recounted in the book.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano, TX, USA

 

[GLV]

ASLET

In about 90 or 91 Jim taught this method in San Diego at the ASLET conference. I like it and did practice the method a good bit dry firing in very dim basement, and I also tried it at a night shoot. Seemed to work well at 5 to 8 yards or so.

Jim was an interesting guy to talk to.

 

[JJEH]

I read the book but never tried it. Thanks for bringing this up, I will re-read it and try...

 

[scooter123]

Four years ago I had a local PD Instructor give me a bit of a tuneup on my technique. He turned me on to Target Focused Shooting instead of shooting by the sights. BTW, with this method you still maintain awareness of the sights but your vision is focused on one point on the target and you fire as soon as you "feel" the gun is aligned with that target point.

As he explained it most people will chase the sights during recoil with their gase and this impedes firing rate. The problem is that if you take your gaze off the target for even an instant you have to re-acquire the target with your gaze and this drives a mental loop that costs time. In addition it's very probable that you won't reset your gaze to the exact same point on the target and that will degrade accuracy. Since I was at the point in life where I was starting to have trouble focusing on handgun sights I didn't argue and instead worked learn how to shoot to his method. In about 40 minutes of practice I cut my split times by 30% without losing one bit of accuracy.

Fast forward to today and I can't even see the sights on the Sig P239 that I carry every day when shooting it at the one local range that permits me to do rapid fire shooting. As a result what I now use with my Sig is what I call "Weapon Guided Point Shooting". For me getting there was a process that was driven by a gradual decline in my near field vision due to age and it happened so slowly that it was a process of adaption instead of training. So, how well can I shoot today. At 15 yards I can hold a 5-6 inch group with my P239 at a 0.34 second split time. Those targets aren't anything to brag about but 5-6 inches at that rate of fire will slow down a large majority of any assailant I might encounter.

So, yeah I guess what I'm doing is what Jim Cirillo was recomending. However, in my case it was an adaption to getting old. I suspect that many who are questioning on how to learn how to do this just need to age a bit more, then you'll do it as a matter of necessity.

 

[Zebulon]

Well said scooter and it's very possible that Mr. Cirillo was doing just that .....He was no kid in the '90's and may have found a new and profitable way to make his point without actually saying that he was making those adjustments..... I'm 65 and I "see" things differently all the time......Zebulon

 

[photoman]

"Metal on meat" aiming works good out to 10 yards or so. Be sure to focus on the target, not the sights.

 

[Zebulon]

Photoman44....Ah, a familiar name.... I agree...the problem with this method is that it wars against everything you've been taught to think in the past....a difficult task without stree....Front sight...Front sight..... Zebulon

 

[venomballistics]

as I think of it .. it sounds a lot like a phenomena I had encountered years ago after playing first person shooter type vid games.
the game point of view is always the rear of the gun sights aligned in these games.

at some point during a good fast action blastathon with a friend I had noticed I fell into a groove where I wasn't really looking at the sights, but rather shooting with the game perspective. perhaps this theory is is related.
God knows I never connected the dots to apply it to any form of defensive shooting. Just thought I went a bridge too far in operation flashpoint

 

[MichiganScott]

I find that I can no longer see iron pistol sights clear enough to effectively use them. I've gone to red dots on my range guns and that takes care of the problem, but it's not an option for self defense carry.

With much practice, I find my ten yard and under groups are actually smaller point shooting than when using the sights. At longer distances, I still have to try to use the sights to get anything that looks like a group.

The operative term here is "much practice". Accurate point shooting is not easy to do and will not come naturally to most shooters, but can be done.

 

[photoman]

I've gone to red dots on my range guns and that takes care of the problem, but it's not an option for self defense carry.

Don't tell Gabe Suarez that. LOL

Red Dot Pistols | TSD Combat Systems

 

[RichardK]

Hello Scooter,

I like your perspective on weapon guided point shooting. I am 59 and to see the front sight clearly, I have to tilt my head up for the no-line bifocal lower portion to work. I tried a prescription with no bifocals (distance only), but could not focus on the front sight at all. But the prescription works for my shotgun shooting.

So, like you, I am practicing point shooting and will try this weapon guided variation again next week, this time focusing on the target, versus the front sight, which is counter-intuitive to what everybody is taught. What you said about firing rate and focusing on the target makes sense, especially for double-taps, where a lot of people wonder why the second shot isn't close to the first shot on target.

MichiganScott makes a good point (no pun here) that point shooting doesn't come naturally to most people, that is why we need to practice, practice and practice. But I find this method very suited to self-defense scenarios 10 yards and closer in possible low light conditions.

Richard in Plano, TX, USA

 

[jlrhiner]

If you are becoming interested in point shooting, get the little book "SHOOTING TO LIVE by Fairbairn and Sykes. They were responsible for teaching indigenous police, (in Hong Kong and Singapore if I remember correctly) to survive close quarters gunfights. Between the two of them, they were involved in something like 300 CQB's and survived.

I want everyone to understand, this is in no way a slight to Jim Cirillo.

But many times, a simple concept is rethought and complicated by many people adding their nuances to it.

The principles and techniques taught in SHOOTING TO LIVE are simple, easy to adopt methods capable of being practiced in your front room and on any informal range available to you. You'll be surprised after a few weeks practice, how many hits you can make on a paper plate at 21' with your handgun never coming above your chest.

Again I have to point out, this is not fine shooting. This is guts on the line, live or die survival shooting. If you want to snuff out candles or shoot prairie dogs, you have to use your sights.

 

[Doug M.]

There are some good discussions of red dots on pistols on LF and 10-8. A couple of good folks are setting up pistols with them, and others have been using them for all purposes including daily carry and duty. The system is still evolving, but good work is being done. I am not ready to go that yet, but I do have more visible front sights mounted on all of my pistols, and of course an Aimpoint on my AR. My EDC G33 has the XS big dot system.

 

[RichardK]

Hello Jim,

I agree that this type of shooting is live or die close quarters stuff out to about 20 feet. Thanks for the book recommendation - yes, I have read it.

If I want to hit bullseyes out to 50 feet or so, I'll use my Sig Mosquito or Ruger Single Ten revolver, both in economical .22LR. This is paper plinking; after I've hit the target a few hundred times using a two-handed Weaver stance, it gets boring.

I use my other handguns for CCW: Sig 238 and a S&W 340PD in pocket and ankle holsters. I also have my Sig 220 Combat, but I relegate that to my winter coat pocket whenever it gets cold enough here in Texas. These are the three I use in my point shooting practice along with silhoutte targets. I practice shooting one-handed dominant right, one-handed weak left, two-handed, waist-high one-handed, arm on the bench and leaning against either side of the booth. No taps on the shoulder yet ! And I practice loading and unloading one-handed, either hand.

Richard in Plano, TX, USA

 

[WR Moore]

Having joined the Bifocal Brigade some years ago, I made a discovery: a lens grind referred to as a Mechanics Grind. This has the bifocal at top and bottom of the lens with distance vision in the center. Now that I've transferred to the Trifocal unit, the intermediate (1.5 diopter) section is up top and the near vision at bottom.

The result is that a slight forward tilt of the head brings the sights into sharp focus.

You can find this type of lens at any place that sells safety type glasses. There's been a lot of changes guys, they all don't look like BC specs.

 

[sipowicz]

You might as well practice it because you will most likely use it anyway when TSHTF.

 

[Zebulon]

Just a thought concerning glasses and correction.....I never go to the range with my glasses because my mind works like this....I don't wear my glasses during the day because I can live without them...My eyes are just "old". I can certainly function quite well without them, and I'm not required to wear them (by law) to drive. I also shoot uncorrrected because that is likely what I'll be called to do in the event of a shooting incident, especially at home and at night. In years passed, I've done the "tri-focal" thing as well, but now choose to shoot without corrective lenses to either discipline my eyes and brain to focus on my front sight, or in this case. do what I must in case of dire, immediate need........Zebulon

 

[Jellybean]

In Chapter 7, he talks about his weapon silhoutte method of pointing a handgun versus active sighting. He advocated subliminal sighting instead of directly using the sights. He said using the silhoutte of the weapon worked optimally in poor light conditions (where the weapon sights could not be seen) and in shooting distances within 10 to 15 yards (with a closing threat).

His book is the only one I ever threw away. Normally I don't thorw them away, no matter how bad it is, but his fell on the floor in the basement and I just didn't feel it was worth bending over to pick it up, then after a feew weeks we had a heavy rain and so...I have a few more "point shooting" books that I should get rid of, but we don't have a basement anymore.

Anyway, HIStechniques were nothing new and were only a rehash of others before him. Bringing a gun up to eye level really defeats the benefit of real point shooting and just because you can see the outline of the firearm doesn't mean you are going to be able to hit anything with it.

 

[photoman]

His book is the only one I ever threw away. Normally I don't thorw them away, no matter how bad it is, but his fell on the floor in the basement and I just didn't feel it was worth bending over to pick it up, then after a feew weeks we had a heavy rain and so...I have a few more "point shooting" books that I should get rid of, but we don't have a basement anymore.

Anyway, HIStechniques were nothing new and were only a rehash of others before him. Bringing a gun up to eye level really defeats the benefit of real point shooting and just because you can see the outline of the firearm doesn't mean you are going to be able to hit anything with it.

Wow. Tell us how you really feel.

Shooting a handgun for life or death is a continuum between absolute unsighted fire at holster level where the attacker is wringing your neck to taking a sharp front sight, aimed shot at 50 or more yards. Being proficient at all levels in between will keep you alive.

p.s. There are some that can hit very well at amazing distances just using the outline of the gun (or less).

 

[Jellybean]

Right you are, and it's the "and less" that I'm talking about. As the distance grows between you and the target any alignment errors grow proportionaly. Just putting the weapon in front of your face doesn't mean it's lined up, and if it's during a very low light situation it gets worse. If you can't see if the guns is lined up, the next best way for many people is to "feel" it, and if you can do that you don't need the gun in front of your face at all. In fact, many point shooters go for the feel and don't take the time to see it even in day time.

 

[Chuck1217]

I'm thinking this may be what Ayoob calls 'reference aiming"- maybe. He has 3 basic styles, sights, point (absolutely no use of sights) and reference, using some sort of reference points- maybe it's not 'reference" but it means the same thing- getting old, it ain't for sissies, is it...

 

[RichardK]

Hello Again,

I have been range shooting with my 340PD and my Sig P238 using Cirillo's weapons silhoutte point method lately and have been happy with the results.

I shoot at a silhoutte target out to 7 yards. In the 340PD I am using Magtech 38SPL 148 gr lead wadcutters at around 700 fps/166 ft lbs. It is a very manageable range load for the lightweight 340PD. Out of a 50 round box, I think there are usually maybe 5 shots out of center mass, but still on the silhoutte.

Results with the Sig P238 were a tad better with tighter groupings in center mass and all 50 shots in center mass, no strays. Less recoil probably amounts to the slight increase in accuracy.

Next visit to the range, I will experiment with my Sig P220 and the silhoutte method.

Practice, practice, practice.

Cheers,

Richard in Plano TX

 

[Old TexMex]

If you are becoming interested in point shooting, get the little book "SHOOTING TO LIVE by Fairbairn and Sykes......

The principles and techniques taught in SHOOTING TO LIVE are simple, easy to adopt methods capable of being practiced in your front room and on any informal range available to you. You'll be surprised after a few weeks practice, how many hits you can make on a paper plate at 21' with your handgun never coming above your chest.

Again I have to point out, this is not fine shooting. This is guts on the line, live or die survival shooting. If you want to snuff out candles or shoot prairie dogs, you have to use your sights.

I bought this on kindle and read it last night. Thanks for the tip. Way overdue to read this, seems as though my father must have been taught from this, (he served in WWII in Pacific Theatre) since this is what he showed me, pretty much. The only book I remember on gunfighting around his workshop was Bill Jordan " No second place winner".

 

[mc5aw]

The biggest challenge I have experienced with practicing point shooting is trying to instinctively "unlearn" years of front sight acquisition. I'm gradually getting away from raising the pistol and automatically focusing on the front sight alignment ... when I do it well, the point shots are exactly where they need to be.

An advantage that I've found with point shooting is that it eliminates reliance on front sight picture for us folks who are visually challenged. Anyone with poor eyesight that is corrected by glasses knows the difficulty of seeing anything clearly without their glasses. Point shooting virtually negates that problem ... as long as a blurry image can be made out in the form of a target, the point shooter can direct a line of fire completely independent of front sight picture and alignment.

One interesting side note ... I'm finishing up another wonderful Jim Corbett tiger hunting book, where he describes sitting out on a pitch black night, overlooking a cow carcass, while waiting for his quarry to return. With no light from stars or moon, Corbett describes how he approximated the tiger's position at the carcass, and fired a shot based on SOUND alone.

Since I've been working diligently on point shooting the past two months, I've become a devout convert ...

 

[jlrhiner]

Especially if your going to hunt tigers in the dark!

 

[mc5aw]

Jim ... If you haven't experienced Corbett's books, do so as time permits. He is an engaging writer and recreates his big cat encounters with modesty and humor. His recollections of tracking and killing man-eaters are quite remarkable, and the internal fortitude it took to stare down these big critters must have been off the charts. As far as pure story telling enjoyment goes, Corbett's writing is on the top of my list with that of Teddy Roosevelt. Different men from a different time.

 

[photoman]

As far as pure story telling enjoyment goes, Corbett's writing is on the top of my list with that of Teddy Roosevelt. Different men from a different time.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to read one of his books...