Just curious, how many carry spare ammunition?

When I carried daily in the course of business, there was always at least one speed strip somewhere on my person. In fact from time to time I still drag out an old winter coat and find some 158 gr. Nyclad +P hollowpoints. They fit both my primary and bug at the time.

Now, of course, as a resident of Illinois, I never carry concealed.
 
I carry two speedloaders on my duty belt for my
model 28 .357, two speed strips, plus a New York
reload in my boot - a M36 no dash.

When I just carry the 36, one speed strip.
 
Zilmo said:
No, I don't carry extra. I guess my world is a little different than the world of those that require two guns, fifty rounds, and three knives. But that's just fine with me.
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Actually we do live in the same world. How you choose to negotiate it is your choice, and I in no way hold it against you.
 
Big Foot said:
Now, if I was living or had to do business in Gary, Ind., (my hometown) or Detroit or DC, I might consider a larger caliber weapon.
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You're right. Those are the only place that bad shootouts occur. Everywhere else, there are good shootouts.

Since extra ammo is of not needed, I'm going to challenge you to carry a single shot pistol. If that's not enough, how much is? Two rounds? Three? Inquiring minds want to know. My crystal ball is broken.
 
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Big Foot said:
Some of these replies really make me laugh. Obviously, no training in PD or CQC. Citing one example of some sociopath is going to make you carry extra ammo or a B.U.G. BTW, in my state, only 1 weapon can be concealed.
There is NOT ONE documented case of a CHL holder who was involved in any firefight where the results even remotely had anything to do with the amount of ammo he carried. If anything, the argument of the proficiency of the holder and caliber might have more relevance.
Now, if I was living or had to do business in Gary, Ind., (my hometown) or Detroit or DC, I might consider a larger caliber weapon. The notion that one would inadvertently drop a mag, weapon jam,in an extended shoot-out shows the immaturity of the holder and has no idea of what to do in such situations. I don't live in a Walter Mitty world of "shoot-out" fantasies! You probably shouldn't be carrying a weapon, that is if you do at all..This is not the "Streets of Laredo" with J.W. Hardin staring you down. You can carry as much ammo as you want; but don't make it seem like the "more the better", mine is "bigger than yours", mentality; it leads to nowhere...Be proficient in whatever you have and seek Cover!
Actually, I find your oddly irate posting to be the only one worthy of amusement, but you seem incorrect on several points that are worth correcting. Some of the respondents that you somewhat mock are former LE and Flop Shank, if I recall correctly, was trained as an infantryman and responsible for training other infantry in skill at arms.

Anyway, some things that you seem confused about -

The first involves clearing a malfunction in an auto. One drops the mag purposefully, not accidentally, to clear certain malfunctions. A surprisingly large number of problems are magazine related and other jams that aren't per se mag related are only going to be expediently cleared by dropping the mag.

However, there have been cases where people have indeed drawn their auto only to have the magazine drop to the ground as a result of the mag release having been accidentally activated. Again, rather than stand there looking confused or foolish, the generally accepted drill is to ram a fresh magazine home (from behind cover if at all possible).

For more on malfunctioning guns and shootouts, here's an old installment of the Ayoob files :
The Ayoob files: when your gun jams in a firefight - Massad Ayoob | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET

In general no one knows what has or hasn't happened in shoot outs involving armed citizens. No entity - none, zero, zip, nada - keeps track of them on a national basis in terms of compiling any reliable statistics. Some, for various reasons, are never even reported. Among those that have been reported, there are indeed cases where armed citizens had to reload, use suppressive fire, multiple guns etc.

The first case that comes to mind is an old one. When Charles Whitman failed to control his anger management issues and climbed the tower at UTA to start shooting folks, his fellow Texans down on the ground took a dim view of this. Numerous armed citizens retrieved their personal weapons and returned fire, helping to keep Whitman pinned. (A key concept of suppressive fire - rounds are not wasted when they help pin the other guy, reduce his accuracy of fire, make him keep his head down, etc. )

Another prominent case took place in the early 90s. My wife tossed my gigantic stack of old American Rifleman back issues, but it was covered there and in the other gun mags at the time. It was note worthy because the AWB with its ten round magazine limit had just become law. As best as I can recall it happened in Texas. An older gentleman was coming back from the firing range and had two hi cap 9mm pistols with him, a Sig P226 and a CZ 75. On his drive back, he came upon a wounded LEO who was under fire. The good Samaritan dragged the officer to cover and started shooting with his two 9mms. I remember the rounds fired were something like 46, as he had to empty both of them, and then either reloaded or used the downed officer's gun.

Another case would be that of jeweler Lance Thomas who survived a number of gunbattles. He chose to rely on multiple guns -http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/pg_2/

Then there was a guy named Beckwith, who ran a gunshop. In one incident he used a full auto S&W Model 76 and in another he had to reload his AR 15 *and* use the SMG. See The Ayoob files: when your gun jams in a firefight - Massad Ayoob | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET

Our friend FerFal in Argentina meanwhile writes about shoot outs there involving hundreds of rounds fired. While America hasn't sunk to Argentine levels of economic collapse (yet), Gabe Suarez certainly thought that lessons learned there were applicable and wrote about such when he returned from teaching classes there. (Suarez and some others actually suggest that one ought keep what amounts to a full "battle rattle" set at home for various and sundry emergencies btw, including carbines, rifle plates and blow out kits. He was a former SWAT officer, and currently a trainer, not someone lacking in experience or prone to violent fantasies I'd think.)

Criminals, btw, don't confine themselves to certain areas. Thanks to the wonderous invention of the automobile, they are free to get into other areas. For examples of "safe" areas seeing horrific crimes, see the recent case of the couple who adopted many mentally handicapped children being murdered in their own camera filled house. Also google "Wichita Massacre". In fact, nice areas are sometimes better picking grounds for criminals for the simple reason that people have better things to steal and are unlikely to be as hardbitten as some ghetto dwellers.

The only macho posturing that I've seen is on your part, with suggestions that you're apparently so proficient that you don't need a reload. Strange. Perhaps you ought open your own training school or some such, since pretty much all the trainers that I'm aware of suggest carrying spare ammo, possibly a BUG, and a flashlight. (Mas. Ayoob writes a great many columns on the subject of why spare ammo and BUGs can be life savers.)

I don't particularly rely, admittedly, on what most people do. Most people do not carry guns. In shall issue states, perhaps 5 percent of the population that is eligible bothers to get a permit, and perhaps only half of them carry all the time. Your arguements are actually close to anti gun arguements in general, since you seem to suggest that anyone carrying spare ammo is ignorant, untrained, or possibly crazy. That seems oddly like what the Brady bunch says about gun carriers in general. (You aren't by any chance the Federal agent who shot himself in the leg with his Glock after the "no one is professional enough but me" speech?)

Where you are somewhat correct, is that some strategies and carry systems are indeed guilty of a certain amount of wishful thinking. I include the carry of speed strips with J frames in the "forlorn hope" category, since - while better than nothing and I'll take a slim chance over none - they might not be terribly useful in the real world.
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Click to expand...
 
Speed strips are for when the shooting is over and the opportunity presents itself to reload. I carry reloads for that purpose alone and agree with Gator. At the same time a speed strip is better than nothing and may get you out of hot water. They weigh next to nothing, so there needs to be a good reason not to carry one IMO (and yes, Because "I don't want to ever do more than just grab a gun and go", is still valid. It's your decision).
 
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flop-shank said:
Speed strips are for when the shooting is over and the opportunity presents itself to reload. I carry reloads for that purpose alone and agree with Gator. At the same time a speed strip is better than nothing and may get you out of hot water. They weigh next to nothing, so there needs to be a good reason not to carry one IMO (and yes, Because "I don't want to ever do more than just grab a gun and go", is still valid. It's your decision).
Click to expand...

I hate to seem like I was knocking them too much. I'm not. I just think one needs to be realistic about what they're likely most useful for. As you say, for those times when a fight might not be over (the classic example is the robber who's buddy was out front "keeping the motor running") and such they're useful for reloading when the chance presents itself. For trying to refill a J frame when/if five wasn't enough and the other guy might still be shooting... probably not the best thing in the world, though infinitely better than loose rounds in a pocket full of who knows what, a box of ammo in the sock drawer at home, scrambling for rocks off the ground/a can of Pepsi to throw, etc.

Speaking of grab a gun and go, to bolster the case against, there's the case alluded to here by John Lott in an old op ed piece FOXNews.com - Good Samaritan Gun Use - Opinion that took place in 2005. The bad guy shooter was wearing soft body armor with a flak jacket over top for good measure, granted not your average situation, but it certainly happened. A good Samaritan armed citizen grabbed - apparently - just his pistol and engaged the bad guy. None of his rounds penetrated the armor, and some accounts state the good Samaritan was killed with an empty gun before he could try for something other than a center of mass shot ( I can't find a news account one way or the other since as Lott observes, the role of the armed citizen wasn't emphasized at all in many stories about the event). To his credit, the good Samaritan did draw the shooter's attention and probably helped save lives.

The bad guy shooter was armed with an AK in addition to wearing armor so it certainly takes a hypothetical "worst case" situation out of the realm of the fantastic and into the realm of "it happened". (Suarez and others take the concept further by delving into the experience of the Izzies in dealing with the sort of terror attacks promised to take place on American soil, but not yet manifested that would look a lot like what happened in Mumbai. That's probably a seperate subject, but worth noting since Ayoob and others have stressed that armed citizens and off duty LEOs alike might want to keep the possibility of such happening in mind as plausible.)
 
I find it troublesome that those that profess to carry extra ammo or a B.U.G. are willing to ignore statistics at their convenience. They see data about a gunfight: the duration, shots fired, and distance; but feel their little episode will be the exception. They will cite a Platt moment, an Ayoob article, and other data that is convenient for their argument.
Here is what many of you are saying, and see how ridiculous it is...
1. Anyone that carries a 6-shot revolver or SA regardless of caliber)w/one reload is at serious disadvantage to a similar person with Glock 17 and one mag! NUMBERS don't mean a hoot...If you don't understand what's missing here....you live in a fantasy world filled with too much TV.
Have you ever drawn your weapon, had shots fired at you? Do you know what avoidance and cover is all about? Do you actually think in a shoot-out you'll be right along side a LEO and "let's blast away"! I'm reminded of a neighbor, retired LEO, drew his weapon only a few times in his career, never fired except the few times he had to qualify each year; but after drinking a bit seems to have this Jim Cirillo fantasy of shooting up the BG's...
I have no problem with how much ammo you carry; just don't say that those that are proficient mentally & physically carrying one handgun is at some serious disadvantage...
 
Big Foot said:
1. Anyone that carries a 6-shot revolver or SA regardless of caliber)w/one reload is at serious disadvantage to a similar person with Glock 17 and one mag! NUMBERS don't mean a hoot...If you don't understand what's missing here....you live in a fantasy world filled with too much TV.
Click to expand...
First off, I don't watch TV. I hate the things. As far as numbers don't matter, why don't you answer my question? How many shots are enough, Ace? Will you take up my challenge and pack a single shot pistol, since your skill, marksmanship and crystal ball will carry the day? It's pretty obvious that you aren't even reading our posts in their entirety, or lack the mental capacity to retain and process them. LIKE I SAID, TWO MEN I KNOW PERSONALLY RAN INTO BULLET SPONGES!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS THIS TYPE BIG ENOUGH? CAN YOU READ THIS?

I guess I'm faced with a choice I can listen to and follow the example of, Jim Cirillo, Bill Allard, Keith Jones (who advised we prepare for the unlikelyhood of running into a bullet sponge in at recent podcast at www.proarmspodcast.com ), Evan Marshall, Lance Thomas, various reknowned and highly respected trainers including Massad Ayoob, Gabe Suarez and many others, or Bigfoot. Gee that's a tuff one. :rolleyes:

A search in this forum for "strongside vs. crossdraw" will reveal a classic example of Bigfoot's stellar logic. The thread Strongside vs. Crossdraw will be on the fourth page.
 
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flop-shank said:
Speed strips are for when the shooting is over and the opportunity presents itself to reload. I carry reloads for that purpose alone and agree with Gator. At the same time a speed strip is better than nothing and may get you out of hot water. They weigh next to nothing, so there needs to be a good reason not to carry one IMO (and yes, Because "I don't want to ever do more than just grab a gun and go", is still valid. It's your decision).
Click to expand...
It's like having extra picks or a spare bottle of sauce in the house. Right on Flop Shank
 
There is nothing wrong with carrying a revolver. I do it myself. I think that some of the people that are saying that people don't need to carry spare ammo need to think about a few things and the reasons some of us do carry extra ammo. You say that you are proficient in your marksmanship. When was the last time you were shooting at a target at the range and had to go for cover while a target was moving and shooting back. I can't say that this has ever happened at any range I went to. That level of stress and addrenilin will make you miss. Also lets look at the things criminals are using these days. You see them carrying high capacity weapons and wearing body armor occasionaly. I don't live in a fantasy world or a world of TV. I live in the world of what is going on in society. That is why I chose to carry spare ammo for my revolver or a spare mag. I am sure that my life expieriences are different from yours as well. You can choose to carry spare mags or ammo or not. That is your decision and I won't criticize you for your decisions. That is what this country is all about. But, you are seriously mistaken to say that everyone that thinks a person needs to carry spare ammo is living in a fantasy world or a world of to much TV.


snakeman
 
I imagined that I used my reload that I'll never have to use today. :rolleyes: I must have imagined I shot a woodchuck at about seven yards, slipped the empty casing from the chamber of my 5" 629, then pulled a replacement from my El Paso Saddlery cartridge slide. My father-in-law was very pleased about the demise of the garden raiding wombat that we both imagined I shot. No doubt the sticky red stuff on the ground was Cool-Aid, or ketchup or something.
 
Big Foot said:
I find it troublesome that those that profess to carry extra ammo or a B.U.G. are willing to ignore statistics at their convenience. They see data about a gunfight: the duration, shots fired, and distance; but feel their little episode will be the exception. They will cite a Platt moment, an Ayoob article, and other data that is convenient for their argument.
Here is what many of you are saying, and see how ridiculous it is...
1. Anyone that carries a 6-shot revolver or SA regardless of caliber)w/one reload is at serious disadvantage to a similar person with Glock 17 and one mag! NUMBERS don't mean a hoot...If you don't understand what's missing here....you live in a fantasy world filled with too much TV.
Have you ever drawn your weapon, had shots fired at you? Do you know what avoidance and cover is all about? Do you actually think in a shoot-out you'll be right along side a LEO and "let's blast away"! I'm reminded of a neighbor, retired LEO, drew his weapon only a few times in his career, never fired except the few times he had to qualify each year; but after drinking a bit seems to have this Jim Cirillo fantasy of shooting up the BG's...
I have no problem with how much ammo you carry; just don't say that those that are proficient mentally & physically carrying one handgun is at some serious disadvantage...
Click to expand...

Yes, I have drawn my weapon. Most memorably, it was a heavy barrel 64. Yes, I've been shot at. Twice that I know about.

I don't recall many people saying anything about someone with a revolver or 1911 or what being at an automatic disadvantage to someone with a Glock withone mag. If anything, the person with the Glock made a mistake since they only have the one mag was a point that was made (our discussion of malfunction drills). As we discussed, for various reasons - whether an auto holds 7 rounds or 30 - having a spare mag is a good idea.

As I explained to you, there are *no* statistics involving what happens in shootings involving armed citizens. No one collects them. Most media reports that do make the press only do so on a regional level and are rarely inclusive of an extreme level of detail. Any numbers floating around about an "average" shooting incident either apply to law enforcement (and vary by department ) studies or are simple speculation. Even in LE circles, some departments were firing eight to ten rounds per incident - with as many as 2/3s of these not hitting the target and would be indicative of "more might be a good idea".

As you're likely aware - any shooting incident is the exception. Once one is already dealing with anomalies, all bets are off. I don't know what form or shape my "incident" would take.

I have drawn my weapon and I have been shot at. That doesn't make me a ninja, operator or anything else. It makes an average slumlord (ret.) or perhaps just an average former resident of Michigan. It's a rough place. Shrug.

Where someone says numbers do mean something it is insofar as having them (potentially) on your side can be a good thing and certainly does no harm. You've also now been shown several incidents (when you claimed none existed) where people did have to reload and in some cases fired over 100rounds (Beckwith) and one case where an apparent lack of a reload at least contributed to the death of the intervening armed citizen (the 2005 case that Lott wrote about). I don't have to have my house burn down around me - which has never happened - to think that having a smoke alarm or a fire extinguisher are good ideas.

Lots of people only carry one gun, and most carry none at all. I don't really worry about it, it's their call. I just point out "why" I do what I do and why someone might do what they do.

Oh and I mainly watch Spongebob these days. He doesn't carry a gun.
 
Barney needed only one bullet on TV.
Prepare for the worst and pray for the best. To each his own.
 
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Flop-Shank, sorry I missed your earlier question. No, not a single-shot handgun. I never said anything about a "one-shot-one-kill" was all that was needed. Only the capacity of one's handgun, 6-7,17, etc....To be entirely honest, some of my reasons deal with the logistics of concealing the additional: climate-clothes, etc...
Evidently, you also haven't read my entire post...
Since you don't watch TV, perhaps you read the gun rags...Did you know that many civilian PD instructors do not include reloads, NY-Tactical in their instruction? They have good reason, besides the data you have ignored from the Uniform Crime Report (FBI) on shootings: # of shots fired, duration in time, and distance....
Here's why extra ammo is not needed, including a B.U.G. for CIVILIANS!
Both reasons are based on failure & negativity:
1. Extra ammo & B.U.G. lends one to think of an extended shootout: you won't survive if you participate...Instead: look for cover & the Cavalry...
2. Extra ammo gives the false impression that if you have a mag failure, e.g., you will have time to reload and continue on...Unfortunately, you lose again....If your weapon is not 100%, your mag fails for whatever reason, you are SOOL!
You're more likely to have a bad-moment in a Wally World parking lot and your reaction must be quick & deliberate.
BTW, thanks for looking up some of my previous posts..In the SS vs Crossdraw debate: my views were favorable if you read the entire postings from various individuals...I'm out every day and I know the real world; not jumping on posts 24-7....
My only wish in this minor debate is that those with CHL's: carry each and every time they go out regardless of caliber and # of rds...
 
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