Just curious uf you lose some accuracy shooting 38's out of a 357.

[NYlakesider]

Back in the 70s & 80s I was a serious PPC shooter. Rather than tie up a bunch of money in a space gun I made my own competition piece. (new Pac grips, white outline sight, a trigger/action job by me)

I bought a new Model 28 6'' and only fired .38s till I was done competing. I found my accuracy very sufficient.

My PPC load was lead .38 semiwad-cutter 158 grain and I fired many thousands of rounds out of it. I went semiwadcutter as it made it much easier to use the speed loader for a quick refresh.

After I stopped PPC I fired serious .357 loads out of it and had no problem with inserting the longer cartridge. Accuracy with .357 power was also very good!

 

[6string]

Have a look at this interesting test. It was made by an ISSF precision pistol competitor in Sweden.
This is the 38 Special segment. It compares a S&W 14, a 586, a 686, and a Colt Python. Of course, you all know that only one of these revolvers is a 38 Special, the others being .357 Magnum.
All ammo is 38 Special factory loads.
You can see for yourself the chart that has a photo of each target for each gun/ammo combination!

Ammunitionstest av .38 Special i Vapentidningen nr 4 2006.

The groups are all fired off-hand at 25 meters.
The groups were all fired for group size comparison; guns were not sighted in on a load-by-load basis.
You can draw your own conclusions.
But, obviously, at least this one competitor doesn't feel there is any inherent loss of accuracy using 38s in a 357, even for precision competitive shooting.

PS: There are three other segments of the test, one for 22 LR, one for 32 S&W and one for 9mm. Each of those is listed as their own "url", (not included here).

 

[Amp]

In theory there is a difference. In my hand there is not.

 

[Sevens]

I think it's a terrific question. There are some things where I agree we could test our own stuff and come to strong, solid conclusions but I also think there is a lot of value in seeing what some industry professionals do and have done.

If you gathered up two dozen different PPC revolvers built from the 70's and 80's from the finest names in the history of PPC guns, you will find that (by far!) the bulk of them are S&W K-frames and the bulk of the S&W K-frame builds were done on .38 Special guns.

To go further:

There is a reason the model 14 is revered among shooters. It's my most accurate 38 or 357.

…maybe, but I believe the 14 was chosen more for the options available especially with regards to the Patridge front sight. The bulk of custom PPC guns were typically made on the Model 10/15 and 64.

With that said, Ron Power built many of his PPC guns on the Model 19 — however it's worth noting that Power also recommended that his PPC builds on the K-frame Magnum not be used with .357 Magnum.

I'm fortunate to own two different Bill Davis PPC guns and my Cougar (Python barrel mated with a Ruger Police Service Six) is chambered for .357 while my Davis built on a K-frame was made from a 10-7.

What's my conclusion? I think if there is an accuracy edge, it isn't enough for the legendary custom revolversmiths to care enough about across the board for their builds.

 

[Protocall_Design]

I built a 686 Bianchi Open Revolver. It has the original 357 cylinder. In a Ransom rest, my 38 Special Bianchi loads shoot 3/8" groups at 25 yards and a little over an inch at 50 yards. I doubt if any 357 loads could do better.

 

[steelslaver]

That is a very accurate revolver. Period.

 

[Nightowl]

Back in the 70s, Ron Power had a set up at the PPC Nationals in Jackson, MS every year that I went. One year he displayed a K38 with the cylinder shortened so that it just chambered a .38 wadcutter cartridge, with the barrel extension fit with a small gap. He told me there was no practical improvement in accuracy between the custom gun and a normal setup. I figured he knew more about it than I did, so I kinda lost interest at that point, and I don't think he built very many after that. It was several years later that the Grand Master was produced, and if I recall, they were on L frame guns with .357 cylinders. I was never fortunate to have one as I was no longer competing in PPC.

 

[Green Frog]

Just to add to the discussion, the late Fred Schmidt of Mechanicsville, VA used to build top shelf PPC revolvers. Among other features he shortened the cylinders to the length of flush seated wadcutter rounds. Then he made special, custom barrels whose tenons would extend through the frame so the throat was back to the face of the cylinder, leaving minimum B/C gap. His theory was that if the bullet entered the forcing cone before it completely left the cartridge case, it would be a step toward maximum accuracy. He did a whole bunch of other things too, and when all was said and done, his guns shot super competitively.
So, does a short round in a long chamber cost you accuracy? I can't prove it from my feeble efforts at hand gunning, but Fred sure thought so!
Froggie

 

[Green Frog]

PS to last: I guess I ought to mention that I shoot 32 S&W "Longs" in my custom chambered K327 (Project 616) but that is casual shooting in the extreme!
Froggie

 

[Pisgah]

Yes, no and maybe. Take your pick because it'll be different for every gun and every load.

 

[BE Mike]

Jim Collins was the first to shoot a 1500 x 1500 in registered PPC competition. He used a highly modified K frame, but with standard length cylinder. It seems like from what I've read, the short cylinder custom revolvers by Fred Schmidt, which were made to shoot .38 SPL wadcutters only, were not more accurate than their long cylinder counterparts, but the cylinders had less mass. Most top PPC shooters shoot their revolvers double-action, out to and including 50 yards. The lower mass of the Fred Schmidt revolver cylinder made shooting double-action easier for the competitor. So no, shortening the "jump" of the bullet by having a shorter cylinder seems to NOT improve accuracy.

 

[mtgianni]

I bought a used 9 mm cylinder for a Blackhawk and fitted it my self with a 0.004" cylinder gap. It is more accurate with the factory 357 cylinder than the 9 mm but not by much. I have never spent any time on the 9 mm development in that gun, just shot accurate loads from the CZ.

 

[Yendor357]

If you want .38s in your .357 and the case length bothers you, and you hand load, just put less powder in your 357 case; preferably with an unjacketed projectile. "357 Lite".

If you don't hand load, you have a perfect excuse to buy another gun. And who can't use another gun?

Or, if you're like me, don't worry about it. Some 357s shoot .38s better, some shoot 357s better. My new Pythons love .38s. My old 686 wants Magnums.

 

[gnappi]

I've always felt that my .38 caliber handguns were more accurate than my .357's loaded with .38's. In the real world my .357's when shooting .38's any accuracy loss was not a biggie but I hated scrubbing the .357 cylinder after shooting .38's so I don't shoot .38's in a .357 any more.

As a matter of fact, not long ago I got a Ruger Blackhawk and its cylinder was so crudded up from .38's I got a SS .357 cylinder for it and I'll let the next owner decide what to do with it... that is after I'm long gone.

 

[44wheelman]

Yes, the farther the bullet from unsupported chamber and/or rifling, the less accurate. You will see this in high pressure rifle cartridges. In lower pressure pistol cartridges with cylinder gaps…meh

So, to test this; if you took the same bullet, at the same pressure in a .10" shorter case, in the same gun….oh, but 357 & 38 are different pressures (about 2x at max psi for each). Too many variables.

 

[calmex]

In Mexico, we were shooting a Mexican version of the PPC a lot. Imagine a sort of mixture of early IPSC and the old PPC but with the kneeling position at 25 changed to shooting over a 55 gallon drum you had to move to while reloading behind a small wall and the left-hand-barricade position at 50 changed to just six shots freestanding and the sitting position changed to shooting over a small cinderblock wall about 2 1/2 feet high -- which again you had to move to under the cover of a short wall but all the basic time limits being the same.

My main gun for this game was a modified K-38 Model 14-3, which I no longer own as I sold it when we left Mexico. Pictured here:

However, as Mexico became increasingly more violent after 2006, we started to worry a lot about stopping power. Most of us had .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolvers that were remarked and registered as .38 Specials because the largest auto pistols allowed for civilian use are .380 ACP's, which were not enough poop for our defensive needs at the time -- although we found a way around that later on. This remarked Model 19, marked and registered as a Model 15, shows the quality of the work.

Thus, the "Big Boy PPC" became a thing. A Big Boy PPC was just a regular, normal everyday Mexican modified PPC with a minimum Power Factor meant to turn everyone's hand into hamburger. These were masochistic matches and just as fun as all get-out. It was normal to have 190 minimum power factors, and I didn't want to bash my Model 14 into junk so I bought myself a Model 28-2 and remarked it as a Model 23 in .38 Special and registered it with a Heavy Duty cylinder installed during the process in case somebody actually checked that it was a "dedicated .38 Special" but that didn't happen. So the .357 cylinder went back in and remains installed on her today. All loads were .38 Heavy Duty loads because .357 brass is prohibited, as is the caliber, for civilian ownership. The Elmer Keith load of a 170 grain SWC over 13.5 grains of 2400 is immensely popular down there, and MP-Molds makes a Hollow-Point version of that mould that has taken over by storm in that community. I still own this one down in Mexico.

Mexican matches usually have the "Target Class" (5-inch, 6-inch or 8-inch barrels) event in the morning and the "Service Class" matches in the afternoon. My Service Class gun was my Heavy Duty, dated to a 1956 manufacture and wearing proper stocks a forum expert on the Heavy Duty directed me to. It was this H.D. cylinder I used to register the Model 28 with.

Often, club events morphed into specifying only one of the two events would be a "Big Boy" match and the other event to be a regular event where .38 Special ammo with a 120 powerfactor could compete to make it easier on the non-reloading crowd. Well, damn. I had no control unless it was my event as to how that would turn out. Sometimes it was the Model 28 I'd have to use in the Big Boy but other times it was the Heavy Duty. Grrrrrrr.

Believe me, I put a lot of effort into testing my regular .38 Special load of a 158 grain (162 with my lead mix) Lee TL-SWC over 3.6 grains of Bullseye shot between my Model 28, my Heavy Duty and my old stand-by Model 14 Heavy Barrel. I wanted to determine if there was any difference worth noting (as Mr. Spock said: "A difference that makes no difference is no difference.") I could always take all 3 revolvers with me to a match, and if the Target Class was the event that could use the powder-puff ammo, I'd just use the K-38.

It turned out to not be a concern. Between all three revolvers, my groups from a rest at 25 yards were about the same. I was particularly impressed with how "dead-on" that Heavy Duty was with it's fixed sights for my loading. So after that, I generally retired the K-38 and when we returned to Canada for what has now become an 8 year stint, I sold it. I still retain ownership of the Model 28, the Heavy Duty, my faithful Model 49 snubby and of course Phil Roettinger's NRM. Patiently and faithfully awaiting the return of myself and my wife back to Mexico and back to the action again!

Phil Roettinger's revolver, sitting patiently and safely in it's current home in Central Mexico awaiting my return to spoil her with soft, warm cloths sprayed with Ballistol.

 

[jschmidt]

Wouldn't it be the other way around?

 

[ezrider9]

I have shot thousands of 38 &357 in my Python. Aside from cleaning after 38's both were just as accurate. 3.2 grains of bullseye and 19.1 of Winchester 296.

 

[diyj98]

Just to add to the discussion, the late Fred Schmidt of Mechanicsville, VA used to build top shelf PPC revolvers. Among other features he shortened the cylinders to the length of flush seated wadcutter rounds. Then he made special, custom barrels whose tenons would extend through the frame so the throat was back to the face of the cylinder, leaving minimum B/C gap. His theory was that if the bullet entered the forcing cone before it completely left the cartridge case, it would be a step toward maximum accuracy. He did a whole bunch of other things too, and when all was said and done, his guns shot super competitively.
So, does a short round in a long chamber cost you accuracy? I can't prove it from my feeble efforts at hand gunning, but Fred sure thought so!
Froggie

I agree with Fred. Of course lots of 357 magnums are super accurate with 38 specials, but if I were having a target gun built in 38 special and ultimate accuracy was my goal, I'd much prefer to have a shorter cylinder over the longer 357 magnum cylinder.

 

[Model19man]

I often take my Model 19 S&W to the range. I recently bought a bunch of boxes of Federal 357 Magnum in 158 Grain jacketed Hollow Point. It's very accurate stuff. My handloads often are 158 grain SWC lead bullets that are powder coated. They are super mild, and very accurate. So regarding the question at hand I do not see a lot of difference. Sometimes I take my Colt Officer's Model in 38 S&W Special caliber to the range. I am unconvinced the Colt is any more accurate than my Model 19 Smith.