beaverislander
US Veteran
Your friend is very lucky indeed.
What a mess.
What a mess.
KABOOM!!!
- Thread starter Fredo Batali
- Start date
Your friend had some good luck. And to top it off,
he has a war story he can tell for the rest of his life.
Surviving the incident, in my mind, anyway, is easily worth
the cost of the gun, whose picture should be framed and mounted.
(Maybe over the reloading bench?)
TACC1
he has a war story he can tell for the rest of his life.
Surviving the incident, in my mind, anyway, is easily worth
the cost of the gun, whose picture should be framed and mounted.
(Maybe over the reloading bench?)
TACC1
Not only is an undercharge NOT as dangerous as an overcharge, it is not dangerous at all (as long as the bullet exits the barrel, which was not the problem here).
A magnum primer is SUPPOSED to be used with 296.
OP
OK, the plot thickens. I pulled down the round next to the "kaboom" round. I found 20.3 gr of a powder that was not W-296, at least to my eye (hand loader for 30 + years). I called my friend and he said he has three powders on hand, W-296, Lil' Gun, and Red Dot. I ruled out Red Dot for the obvious reason (no red dots). I compared the powder in the round with some W-296 I had on hand and some Lil' Gun. Lil' Gun looks close but an obvious difference. Friend said he took the powder from the W-296 one pound jug. He doesn't use a powder measure. He weighs each charge on a RCBS 5.0.5 scale. I was curious because the powder in the round looked familiar. I retrieved a can of W-231 I have on hand and did a comparison. It's scary to look at. I have attached photos of the comparisons. I called him back and told him what I found and he checked the W-296 jug and described the powder as a flattened ball/flake type powder. Doesn't sound like W-296, he bought the W-296 new. So we can be assured that the wrong powder was used, hence the "kaboom", what powder is in the W-296 jug is a mystery. It doesn't appear to be W-296 or Lil' Gun, but sure looks like W-231... Here are the photos.
De Oppresso Liber
De Oppresso Liber
Zjnovak
Member
OK, the plot thickens. I pulled down the round next to the "kaboom" round. I found 20.3 gr of a powder that was not W-296, at least to my eye (hand loader for 30 + years). I called my friend and he said he has three powders on hand, W-296, Lil' Gun, and Red Dot. I ruled out Red Dot for the obvious reason (no red dots). I compared the powder in the round with some W-296 I had on hand and some Lil' Gun. Lil' Gun looks close but an obvious difference. Friend said he took the powder from the W-296 one pound jug. He doesn't use a powder measure. He weighs each charge on a RCBS 5.0.5 scale. I was curious because the powder in the round looked familiar. I retrieved a can of W-231 I have on hand and did a comparison. It's scary to look at. I have attached photos of the comparisons. I called him back and told him what I found and he checked the W-296 jug and described the powder as a flattened ball/flake type powder. Doesn't sound like W-296, he bought the W-296 new. So we can be assured that the wrong powder was used, hence the "kaboom", what powder is in the W-296 jug is a mystery. It doesn't appear to be W-296 or Lil' Gun, but sure looks like W-231... Here are the photos.
De Oppresso Liber
Well... I suppose that answers the question of what caused it.
riverrat38
US Veteran
If he thinks it might be W231, he can measure the density of the mystery powder and compare it to that of W231. I would just weight a case full of both powders and compare. He would only need the relative densities, so he wouldn't need the exact volume, just that they were the same. Fast and slow powders have very different densities. I tried this with Universal and A#5, and the A#5 was about 30% heavier for a case full, and these are both medium speed powders.
Best,
Rick
Best,
Rick
rsrocket1
Member
22g of W231 will generate about 154,000 psi peak within the first 1/8" travel of the bullet. If you can pour the pulled powder back into a 44 mag case, see if it reaches up to about 1/4" from the top of the case. If it's close, it's probably W231.
Glad to hear your friend still has everything God originally gave him. This could have been a much worse situation.
Its a shame such a beautiful 629 was blown up. A real shame.
For the guy that said a Ruger would have taken that load, you're just plain evil.
Its a shame such a beautiful 629 was blown up. A real shame.
For the guy that said a Ruger would have taken that load, you're just plain evil.
OP
As a matter of fact, after I weighed the charge I put it back in the case and it was indeed close to 1/4" from the case mouth. Looked like with the bullet seated it would be a compressed load.
De Oppresso Liber
De Oppresso Liber
Stainless44
Member
- Joined
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Fredo...great job helping your buddy sort this out. And thanks for sharing it with us. These stories remain in my head forever and every time I'm at the bench they help keep me focused.
OP
Stainless44,
This is the only "kaboom" I've had a chance to examine up close. It was really a mystery until I pulled that bullet. At least we know what caused it. Still a mystery how W-296 is not in the jug. Still have to try and sort that out. I've been handloading for 30+ years and I still use a single stage press and double check everything. I took a powder measure for granted once (loose locking screw) and blew the mag out of my Glock 23 and cracked the trigger. New trigger and it's still going at plus or minus 5,000 rounds (just getting it broke in). Friend is very concentious when handloading, slow and methodical. Hated to see this happen to him. I'm happy to pass on this information for all handloaders new and veterans its a good "lesson learned" at the expense of a piece of wood and steel and not flesh and bone. It's a very dangerous hobby.
De Oppresso Liber
This is the only "kaboom" I've had a chance to examine up close. It was really a mystery until I pulled that bullet. At least we know what caused it. Still a mystery how W-296 is not in the jug. Still have to try and sort that out. I've been handloading for 30+ years and I still use a single stage press and double check everything. I took a powder measure for granted once (loose locking screw) and blew the mag out of my Glock 23 and cracked the trigger. New trigger and it's still going at plus or minus 5,000 rounds (just getting it broke in). Friend is very concentious when handloading, slow and methodical. Hated to see this happen to him. I'm happy to pass on this information for all handloaders new and veterans its a good "lesson learned" at the expense of a piece of wood and steel and not flesh and bone. It's a very dangerous hobby.
De Oppresso Liber
Well now that is a real mystery or something is not right as stated by your friend.
If he bought the 296 NEW how is there some other powder in there?? I really doubt a Winchester/Hodgdon mis labeled a jug of powder?? Is it a 1 lb jar?? Were did he purchase it??
If he bought the 296 NEW how is there some other powder in there?? I really doubt a Winchester/Hodgdon mis labeled a jug of powder?? Is it a 1 lb jar?? Were did he purchase it??
Is this what's being said??
That the canister was supposed to contain 296 when it really contained 231? Is there suspicion that it was mislabeled at the factory or that some other hand loading mix up was to blame. My gosh, if it was a factory error Winchester owes somebody a new gun.
That the canister was supposed to contain 296 when it really contained 231? Is there suspicion that it was mislabeled at the factory or that some other hand loading mix up was to blame. My gosh, if it was a factory error Winchester owes somebody a new gun.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
That is the question, how did something other than W296 get into a sealed can of W296? Like I said in my posts on page one, there was some extremely high pressures present to do that much damage to an N frame revolver. If there was 22.0gr W231 in that .44 magnum case that would definitely generate enough pressure to do that kind of damage.
Seriously, if there is no way he mixed up the powders and the powder that was in those cases did come from a sealed can of W296 you need to get in touch with Hodgdon right a way. (yes Hodgdon since Olin no longer handles Winchester powders) I would write down all the information from the label and save some of the powder if they want you to send the power to them. (save some just in case they try to say there is nothing wrong with the powder) IF there was a mix up we are going to be hearing of a lot of destroyed handguns very soon.
A few years ago a friend, who is a longtime careful reloader, accidentally mixed up 2400 and Unique. Eighteen grains of Unique will ruin a Ruger New Model 45 Colt. The top strap was badly bent upward and the cylinder lost the top 3 charge holes. Even the most experienced among us can make a mistake!! Gary
Your friend weighs each charge and still missed the target weight (22gr) by almost two grains?
Add yet another variable to the mystery.
k53
Member
Very true... if it was in fact a sealed, new can, and not just a 'saving face" excuse they [hodgdon] needs to know NOW!
andyo5
Member
If your friend purchased a new can of W296 and it contained W231 or some other powder, somebody should be on the phone to Hodgden because this is a packaging error that is not likely confined to a single can.
You might want to ask your buddy if he also has a can of 231 on hand. He might have accidentally used the wrong can. They are similar looking.
You might want to ask your buddy if he also has a can of 231 on hand. He might have accidentally used the wrong can. They are similar looking.
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As a matter of fact, after I weighed the charge I put it back in the case and it was indeed close to 1/4" from the case mouth. Looked like with the bullet seated it would be a compressed load.
De Oppresso Liber
That is definitely NOT the 296 I used to use. You/your friend needs to contact Hodgdons ASAP. I would not return the can to them without a lot of documentation of what he has, photos, lot numbers, etc.
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scooter123
Member
I have to take exception to this statement. While there are some risks involved Shooting is not actually dangerous unless you get really really foolish. Here we have a case where a revolver was blown up by a mistake and nobody was actually hurt. As shocking as this seems, this is a typical result when a revolver blows up.
However, it does illustrate that when you are reloading you do have to pay attention and stop if you see anything that is a bit "off". In this case confusing W-231 with W-296 is suspected and probably the cause for the demise for a very nice 629. If this canister was truly a sealed and factory labeled canister of powder the manufacturer is largely at fault. However, the reloader also shares in the fault because 22 grains of W-231 has a distinctly different volume than 22 grains of W-296. He should have seen that difference in volume and questioned what he had in that canister of powder. Basically, if something doesn't look right you have to stop and try to find out why, you can NOT go on loading as if nothing is wrong.
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