Ladysmith care and feeding.

[teletech]

I know you can't shoot .22LR out of them without destroying the forcing cone pretty much immediately and also that .22CB caps are the commonly accepted safe ammo for them, but I'd like to get suggestions about alternatives. for when supply-chain issues or panic-buying deprive one of CB caps.
The Agulia Colibri and Super Colibri both lob a tiny 20 grain bullet at low velocities and have noticeably less force than CB long caps and I assume since they are a lot weaker that they are even safer.
I know they make the CBs in short and long, is there any advantage to one or the other?
I gather the Ladysmith was originally intended for .22 long but that it might have been a black-powder loading? I do see some .22 long from time to time, could I assume it to be safe?
What about .22 short?
How about the CCI "Quiet .22"? 3/4 of the velocity of standard-velocity .22 seems like it would be fine but I don't know.

I know Mark Twain's writing was about the No1, but I still think of the passage in "Roughing It" when I handle these things:
I was armed to the teeth with a pitiful little Smith & Wesson's seven-shooter, which carried a ball like a homoeopathic pill, and it took the whole seven to make a dose for an adult. But I thought it was grand.

 

[opoefc]

I have fired modern .22RF Longs in my Ladysmiths w/o any damage or problems with the forcing cones. I also believe any of the CBs or probably low velocity Agulia rounds would be safe but I have not tried them. Ed

 

[delcrossv]

I'm a big believer in Aguila Colibris in my ladysmiths. At 450 fps, the possibility for damage is minimal.

I do reserve CCI CB caps for 6" model though as they seem to need a little more "oomph". Super Colibris are about the same as CCI CB's so I tend to use CCI as they're cleaner.

The gun's "charge holes" (through bored) will fit both short and long CB caps, but I shoot the longs as they're more available to me. Practically, I doubt to makes much difference as they're both shouldered bullets.

I would NOT try modern 22 shorts in these. 750fps (CCi's) is as hot as I dare, and I'm happier with the Colibris.

I'd be dubious about "new" 22 Longs unless I were sure of pressures and speeds. They're often 22LR's mislabeled.

Gratuitous photo:

FWIW, this is at 20' with Colibris out of the shortie pictured above. Good enough IMO.

 

[Dziadzi#1]

I don’t understand! As I understand from this post that S&W makes a modern .22 revolver that cannot shoot .22 lr without destroying the forcing cone! Is the barrel made of wood or maybe brass? Why would someone even buy one?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

First of all, the discussion is about the .22 Hand Ejector, Model 1-3, built on the tiny M frame which was made from ~1900 to 1920 or so. Collectors call them the Ladysmith. These guns do not have a forcing cone, only a barrel shank. They were not designed to shoot .22 LR...only .22 Long...and that is what is stamped on the steel barrel. People buy them because they're cute and collectible.

 

[delcrossv]

First of all, the discussion is about the .22 Hand Ejector, Model 1-3, built on the tiny M frame which was made from ~1900 to 1920 or so. Collectors call them the Ladysmith. These guns do not have a forcing cone, only a barrel shank. They were not designed to shoot .22 LR...only .22 Long...and that is what is stamped on the steel barrel. People buy them because they're cute and collectible.

Yep. Quite a difference between a Ladysmith (M frame) and a Lady Smith (J frame)

 

[Pisgah]

>>I don’t understand! As I understand from this post that S&W makes a modern .22 revolver that cannot shoot .22 lr without destroying the forcing cone! Is the barrel made of wood or maybe brass? Why would someone >>even buy one?


You are correct. You do not understand.

 

[delcrossv]

This may be instructive. .22 Targets, bottom to top M, I. J, and K frames.

 

[DWalt]

Back long ago when I owned a Ladysmith, I used CCI .22 Short SVs with no bad outcomes. I wouldn't advise using anything high velocity.

 

[merl67]

I have shot both Agulia Colibri and Super Colibri in my Ladysmith without issue.

 

[teletech]

Tiny range report:
I haven't found my CB caps, but I did break out a couple boxes of Agulia Colibri and Super Colibri. I found I got pretty consistent groups around 2.7" with the super at 10 yards but that opened up to 3.9" with the regular Colibri. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about this level of accuracy for any firearm, though I have seen even worse from some pocket .380s over the years.
I also found the "normal" sight picture was way off and I had to lift the front sight well out of the rear notch to get anything like sight regulation. Here's a shot showing the "super" on the left with the front sight lifted vs. "Solibri" on the right and a typical bullseye hold. I look forward to finding my CB as I recall them being a longer and heavier projectile so might shoot more to sights and perhaps stabilize better.

 

[delcrossv]

Aside from the target model, I've found Ladysmths to be "conversational range" guns. Let us know how the CB's work out.

 

[teletech]

Aside from the target model, I've found Ladysmths to be "conversational range" guns. Let us know how the CB's work out.

In your experience, are the target guns actually more accurate, or are the sights just better?
I know they were sort of parlor guns, but still hoped for S&W to build in some good accuracy as a point of pride.
The bore is generally quite good, as are the chambers, but I will say the back face of the forcing cone has some pitting and erosion.

Still no CBs, but a good cleaning improved things markedly, shaving about 3/4" off the 10-yard group sizes. Things still open up quite a bit at 15 yards.
The forcing cone had a lot of lead build-up, I cut a Lewis 41-cal wire disk in half and pulled it into the forcing cone with a slotted cleaning rod and was impressed at how much material I got out.

 

[delcrossv]

The sights are very small either way, but the target sights are better. My 7th grader generally shoots them better than I just because he can see the sights.
Of course, a longer barrel always helps.

If your "forcing cone" is roughed up that may affect the accuracy of your particular gun. I'd check timing if you're getting a lot of shaving/buildup .

They were built to the same tolerances as the larger frame guns so I'd expect similar accuracy.

 

[DWalt]

A Ladysmith today is more in the category where it should be seen and not heard. I would limit its use to nothing more than seldom. I agree with the earlier comment: I've found Ladysmiths to be "conversational range" guns. If you break something, it probably cannot be fixed.

 

[teletech]

A Ladysmith today is more in the category where it should be seen and not heard. I would limit its use to nothing more than seldom. I agree with the earlier comment: I've found Ladysmiths to be "conversational range" guns. If you break something, it probably cannot be fixed.

If it breaks then it's a wall-hanger, no sense in relegating it to that status until then. I did pick up a spare barrel in case forcing cone issues present themselves.
Actually, as a machinist, I've had to make unobtanium parts from time to time. Today's project: shell lifter for 1800s Webley shotgun.
That said, it's not like I'm planning to use this on a very regular basis. The $25/box for CBs at the moment reinforces that inclination.

Speaking of CBs, I still haven't found my stash of CB longs, but I did find my CB shorts. Just one target so-far and while one shot really opened up the group so it's the same ~2.6" maximum size as the Aguila, the density of the pattern is a lot better.

 

[glowe]

For comparison purposes, here are averages of 22 RF rounds shot over a chronograph from a Masterpiece 6" barrel.

CCI 22 BB Caps. . . Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400 fps
CCI 22 CB Caps. . . Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 475 fps
CCI 22 CB long . . . Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 700 fps
CCI 22 CB Short . . Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 450 fps
CCI 22 Short. . . . . Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 990 fps
UMC 22 Short . . . . Winchester Factory BP. . . . . 600 fps
22 Long . . . . . . . . Winchester Factory . . . . . . .750 fps

I shoot CCI 22 Longs out of my 22 HEs without issue, but seldom shoot them anymore. You are looking at 1200 fps shooting 22 LR, while standard 22 Longs are around 700 to 750 fps. That is a 40% reduction in velocity and big reduction in pressure. I am in the camp that say 22 Shorts are hot, way too fast for the 22 HE and much faster than the numbers quoted by others at nearly 1000 fps.

 

[merl67]

Gary
Your research mirrors what I've seen I will only shoot Aquila Colibri, and super Colibri or 22CB in mine. No standard 22 shorts.

 

[CZU]

I was looking for info on a H&R revolver I picked up the other day and came across this in a reprint of a 1908 Sears catalog:

The ad says highest grade 22 cal revolver made taking 22 cal rimfire cartridges and gives the part numbers for those cartridges in the chart below:

What a surprise! 22 short and long but loaded with black powder!

Now we come to the lowly H&R that I was looking for info on:

Not only will it accept shorts and longs but also long rifle in either black or smokeless powder!(although the only smokeless is the 22 short)

Soooo, if you happened to be around back then and were looking for a 22 revolver which would you pick, ignoring what you know now about collectability vs shootability.

I don't have a Ladysmith, if I did it would be pictured with the H&R Premier. I'm betting they are about the same size.

 

[delcrossv]

Very cool CZU! Neat seeing the old ads.
IIRC, the H&R is a good deal bigger than an LS- more like I frame size.

For size comparison as I don't have a H&R