LAPD Model 14-1

[mikeruns]

Cool story on this 6" model 14 and all the provenance! I love the idea of a beefed up cylinder as it makes staging and speed shooting easier with experience and much practice.
Also, cool story on the one with the 3" modded bbl- looks like it actually has the Fuzzy Farrant's frame modification for same guy's stocks. I always cringe when I see the frame mod but realize it was for a specific grip feel that many folks, especially leo's, preferred. So that makes it a historically cool wheel gun along with the 3" mod over the more common 4" mod-thanks for sharing a cool gun and story!

 

[Retired W4]

Interesting, but you could not call it rare. After all, there are 19 others

What a history. Watts, SLA. I wonder if Patty got to look down the bore of that one.

 

[delta-419]

LAPD Smith & Wessons

A really interesting story that brings back memories of the LA riots. I was on a flight change at LAX on the way to Schofield Barricks HI, when the riots were fully underway and the piolet informed us that the plane would make an over water approach to avoid gunfire. As we made the turn towards the field the city looked like a warzone with long columns of black smoke from burning buildings. Something etched in my mind forever. I bought a S&W 41mag marked L.A.P.D. as a reminder a few years ago. I wonder if the SWAT teams transitioned to them, although they were not long in the inventory.

 

[MTC(SS)Ret]

These pistols are occasionally discussed on this forum and I thought it would be interesting to see one. This one was issued to a friend of mine on Oct 29, 1962. He carried it until he retired in 1982. It saw a lot of service including the Watts riots, and the Symbionese Liberation Army Shootout while he was assigned to SWAT. It had its single action notch removed from the target hammer but escaped the order to have its barrel cut down to 4". Very few Model 14's in service at that time escaped this modification. Looking at the invoice you will notice that it was shipped with a "beefed up cylinder", for which I can find no technical specifications, and "less stocks". When issued it bore standard S&W checkered Magna grips which were replaced with custom grips by John Hurst.

I've been watching a lot of Adam-12 reruns lately and the stocks on yours look very similar to one's on the guns carried by Malloy and Reid. Also noticed in the earlier years they carried 6" revolvers and later 4" (or vice versa).

 

[larry21556]

This M-14 actually got an earlier cross draw holster. I carried a clamshell for a while and while it had some advantages it was awkward when running and they have been known to open spontaneously. At least one guy I know of shot himself in the leg while drawing, fortunately while on the combat range, because the release was through the trigger guard.

The grips are very comfortable to shoot

 

[SG-688]

Some very cool lumber being displayed here. And I'm pretty sure I have an old copy of Guns magazine around here that has that Matthews gun in it or one very close to it including the grips. The Kanthack name is one I don't know or maybe have forgotten, any other examples of his work out there ?

Great thread !

The LAPD Lt -- Max Hurlbutt -- says that Kanthack made only a few grips. Picture of Kanthack having a good time provided by Max.

More pictures of the Kanthack grips. I see them as being in the style of Joe Blackford rather than Farrant or Hurst.

Wiley Clapp and the late Walter Rickell wrote about Mathews and there are several discussions on the forum.

Bill Blackwood is named as a the maker of the non-finger groove grips on some guns. I have no information on him at all. I've wondered if the Blackwood name was mis-remembered from LAPD maker Joe Blackford - but that's guessing.

I have a pair of grips that looks like those and seem to have been fit to a round butt frame modified from a square butt as they don't fit properly on a factory round butt. (Is that convoluted enough??)

Max knew both Hurst and Farrant and wrote about how each went about making grips to order. Hurst perhaps more the imagineering artist while Farrant was more technical.

Also from Max is his model 15 with open back Hurst grips with the frame cut less radically than the typical Farrant. I call this and the others above 2nd generation Hurst. I handled them again this past Friday. Not as good as Farrant for me. YMMV as always.

 

[SG-688]

....I bought a S&W 41 mag marked L.A.P.D. as a reminder a few years ago. I wonder if the SWAT teams transitioned to them, although they were not long in the inventory.

L.A.P.D. might also be something like Los Alamos PD. Letter?

Los Angeles did test the .41 in 1964/65 as reported in Alan Bristow's THE SEARCH FOR AN EFFECTIVE POLICE HANDGUN. (PDF available at archive.org. I recommend it.)

The street cops wanted it but cost more than recoil was the major negative. "Chief Reddin quoted Inspector Davis, who said he would personally be one of the first to buy the new gun, because while the .38 revolver is a good target weapon, it is not as effective in tactical situations as the .41."

Guy Hogue is mentioned - and Patrick Hogue says Guy owned a model 58.
"The chart and information that follow were compiled by Officer G. L. Hogue."

One memo from page 125 of Bristow:

The .41 S & W 4" M & P model was then fired rapid-fire,
combat style, by Officer Lingscheit, using 210-grain soft lead
bullets. The weapon definitely had more recoil than the .38
Special, but was not difficult to control. ...

Officer Lingscheit is of the opinion that the .41 S & W revolver,
usng the 210-grain soft lead bullet, is superior in stopping
power to the weapon and bullet now used for the following
reasons:
1. More velocity, but under 1000 ft. / sec.
2. Larger bullet diameter with more striking force.
3. Not as subject to bullet deflection.
4. Has deeper penetration.

The biggest disadvantage in converting to this weapon would
probably be cost. The 4-inch revolver with fixed sights sells for
$80. The 6-inch weapon with adjustable sights sells for $140.
The cost of factory ammunition would also be more expensive.
In addition, we are not equipped at the police academy to provide
reloads of this caliber.

Another disadvantage is the heavier recoil. Officer Lingscheit
reports that the recoil is noticeably heavier than that of the .38
Special and this may cause the average shooter to have a recovery
problem shooting rapid-fire.

Respectfully,
S. S. Barth, Captain
Commander, Training Division

 

[Keith Brown]

Thats a massive filler on the Kanthack grips, deep fillers while moving the knuckle away from the trigger guard also pull the trigger finger down awkwardly for me and tend to move bore line higher. Much appreciate the photos and will keep for reference. And I'll bet your right with the Joe Blackford name rather than Blackwood. also love the pic of the Hurst grips.
Early on I cut a few frames pursuing the Farrant style grip but only had a few pics to go by and had never handled a set.

Thanks

 

[LPD256]

Thanks.
I love the grips. I bet they feel great.

Lee-I have three pair of Hurst grips. They were custom made to perfectly fit an officer's hand, kind of like the old Herrett's where one put their hand flat on a piece of paper and drew around it then sent the paper with the order. Hence, each pair fits/feels slightly different. I have one pair that I believe was made for a left hander based on palm swell. I have one pair that are clearly too small. I have one pair that fit perfectly. Even the less than optimum fit stocks feel awesome. The right ones are a dream. Jim

 

[Keith Brown]

LPD, Im a lefty would you mind posting some pics of that set sometime.

Thanks

 

[LPD256]

LPD, Im a lefty would you mind posting some pics of that set sometime.

Here you go Keith-notice the screw goes right to left. Others I have seen go left to right. When the gun is in a holster, the plug side is out. To me the checkered pair also has a little more palm swell and the checkering is a little different on the left side. I could be all wet. But it feels a little better in my left hand. Your thoughts?

 

[Keith Brown]

If you view them from the back the left panel should look noticeably more full than the right, at least that's usually the easiest way to tell, and the plug on the left is a good indicator also. I like them very much. Thanks for showing.

 

[Keith Brown]

Just took this quick pic of stuff on the bench behind me. All are kind of my take on the Farrant/Hurst type of grip. I made Farrant type grips as early as 78-79 although I'd never held a set.
Sorry to the OP for the thread drift, but I love this stuff.

 

[LPD256]

To me it's all subjective. Each set is different. So left to right is checkered left hand, just right non checkered, a little smaller. Honestly I love the way they feel. I'll bring them to Tulsa Symposium and you can play all you want.

 

[SG-688]

LPD, Im a lefty would you mind posting some pics of that set sometime.

Here you go Keith-notice the screw goes right to left. Others I have seen go left to right. When the gun is in a holster, the plug side is out. To me the checkered pair also has a little more palm swell and the checkering is a little different on the left side. I could be all wet. But it feels a little better in my left hand. Your thoughts?

That smooth pair of grips may be early 70's Hogue as seen in the James Mason book. As before == more pictures especially of upper right side and inletting.

As soon as I say that, you'll probably tell me you bought them directly from John Hurst !!!!

Added picture from Linde of one of his early Hogue grips with an atypical for Hogue bottom profile.

 

[Muley Gil]

Or maybe Smith didn't know the PD was going to neuter the guns.

But I do like the ability to roll the cylinder to check for binding.
I did that in CAS, in spite of all the experts telling me what I had long before read Skeeter Skelton to say; load 4, skip 1, load 1.

I thought it was load one, skip one, load four, cock and lower the hammer.

 

[LPD256]

That smooth pair of grips may be early 70's Hogue as seen in the James Mason book. As before == more pictures especially of upper right side and inletting.

As soon as I say that, you'll probably tell me you bought them directly from John Hurst !!!!

Added picture from Linde of one of his early Hogue grips with an atypical for Hogue bottom profile.

Hopefully this photo should help. Early Hogues had a rounded top on the right side that would've covered some of the S&W logo. They aren't marked so anything is possible. Jim Rogers said they are Hurst. Although I didn't buy them from him.

 

[SG-688]

That's a Hogue right side profile used before the "elephant ear" style.

99.9% - or a well made copy.

Only picture I can use is from member Larry21556. I found another restricted photo with your profile of the palm swells and tapered bottom.

 

[LPD256]

That's a Hogue right side profile used before the "elephant ear" style.

99.9% - or a well made copy.

Only picture I can use is from member Larry21556. I found another restricted photo with your profile of the palm swells and tapered bottom.

I really haven't wanted to hijack larry21556's thread. If you read what I've said I'm relaying what I've been told by people that know more than me. In essence I'm open to a discussion but it really doesn't matter because I'm not selling any of them. My 15-3 in the photos came from larry21556 and letters to LAPD. That to me is what is important and I appreciate Larry's help in acquiring it. Jh

 

[Toyman]

Here is s links to older threads on Hurst,Farrant and Houge grips.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ollection-pictures.html?130557=#post135405676