Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!

[NYlakesider]

Watching the news when they evacuate schools you always see the people inside running out with their hands in the air under LEO guidance. I understand why, no problem there.

Well that same scenario also happens when a non-school building has to be cleared of innocents. Those building could be stores, banks, shopping centers & airports before the restricted area. (We had the biggest shopping center in my area with a guarded evacuation happen a couple years ago and that was how it went) Hands up, in single file they got the people out of harm's way

Now for my point. What happens when a legally armed person, not involved in any way to the situation at hand has to exit the building under police guard? Your hands are up or behind your head, a good chance under that circumstances your weapon will print. Or it does not print but you are personally checked and your carry piece is discovered. Lots of things could happen, quite possibly very fast. LEOs naturally will be on a adrenaline high.

With the crew, (both LEOs and legally armed civilians) we have here hopefully we can get some interesting answers to a situation that easily could happen!

 

[BAM-BAM]

In to follow; with great interest....................... after Las Vegas; old white guys are not immune

 

[Doug M.]

Keep your hands up, keep your hands away from anywhere near the gun for sure. Expect to end up at gunpoint (most likely on the ground), handcuffed, and staying that way until disarmed and your lawful status is confirmed. Depending on the level of chaos at the scene, this could be 5-60 minutes.

 

[kraynky]

They slam my old creaky bones on the ground, somebody's getting sued. LOL! I don't pay my Chiropractor to keep my bones straight for nuthin. I can accidently bump a shoulder into a wall (cutting a corner too quick) and pain shoots through my back. I can't imagine getting tackled by a few "pumped up" LEO's! Dang, that hurts thinking about it.

I never considered that situation before, but you're right. I only reach up to the higher shelves at the grocery with my left hand. I guess I'd have to just bend the elbows, hold my palms outward, pin my elbows to my side and run (no, can't do that either) waddle out the door.

 

[hoc9sw]

Keep your hands up, keep your hands away from anywhere near the gun for sure. Expect to end up at gunpoint (most likely on the ground), handcuffed, and staying that way until disarmed and your lawful status is confirmed. Depending on the level of chaos at the scene, this could be 5-60 minutes.

That is what to expect. If that presents a problem, it is a risk to consider before carrying.

 

[Goldstar225]

Under those circumstances, a person can expect to be "separated from the herd", disarmed and verified that they were not part of the problem. Bear in mind that the responding LEO's will not know who the good guys and bad guys are that early in the incident. Criminals change clothes, many I dealt with over the years wore two sets of pants or pants over shorts just for this purpose.

As it was said above, keep your hands away from the gun and cooperate. Please don't reach for the gun to disarm yourself unless told to do so.

 

[NYlakesider]

Both post 3 and post 6 above are basically my views on what to expect. Not to contaminant I waited to see what other members would have to say on this subject. Your definitely a armed suspect till proved otherwise if your weapon is spotted or you inform the officers!

If that scenario comes to pass it will indeed be a "sticky wicket" as our British friends would say. Hopefully will never have to be proved out! As I have been carrying since the 70s I have a couple plains made out on what I will do or not do assuming I have the chance to be in some sort of control. This is just another.

 

[Richard Simmons]

Life in general is made up of risks. The topic of this thread is just one more. I presume if one has chosen to CCW then you have already considered and come to terms with the biggest risk which is relying on someone else for your protection.

 

[Jeppo]

Criminals change clothes, many I dealt with over the years wore two sets of pants or pants over shorts just for this purpose.

Hope to never find myself in such a situation. But, if it ever happens to me, I bet I'll wish to be wearing an additional pair of clean pants.

And I'm not a criminal.

 

[ken158]

What is posted above is a good explanation of what will most likely happen. LEO responders will be in a high alert frame of mind and doing anything other then instructed will be met with accordingly. One poster hinted that he may sue if he gets taken to the ground, might as well get his lawyer on retainer and expect nothing in return. A court will consider reasonable reaction from LEO based on the situation at hand in the attempt to safeguard the public while looking for perpetrators.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Well; on the plus side, if you ever have to deal NYlakesider"s situation ........ you've at least made it out alive !!!!!



Not to be argumentative;this is a very thought provoking thread...........................some thoughts:

These types of situation are full of SNAFU's just waiting to happen...............the rules don't go away or get suspended just because the crowd is bigger.......

Note: my Dad was a Police Officer and involved in at least one shootout (with Bank robbers)..... bottom line I/we want everyone to go home safely to their families.

I agree the ''reasonable man" standard will apply to everyone conduct, police and civilian alike....... what a jury considers reasonable may vary between a 20 year old , me a fit 64 year old; and some here who are well into their 70s..... " I don't think "slamming [his] creaky old bones on the ground" (the Poster's words not mine) to the point of causing injury (and damages which is what will trigger a civil suit)would not, in most cases, be found reasonable unless the person is resisting.

As a First Responder one may also need to think about folks that may have limited vision due to lost glasses or contacts....... or maybe more likely are hearing impaired; or simply frozen by fear; causing one to not be immediately responsive to verbal or hand directions.

Adrenalin and fear on all parties involved will most likely have a negative impact on the situation. Most likely, IMO the question of "was it reasonable" will get before the jury....... well after the heat of the moment has passed............................

In Pa. IIRC about 7% of the population (over 21) have "Licences to carry". If the event/incident is not in a gun free zone...... as a Police Officer (which I'm not)I should have an expectation that one or more legally armed civilians may/will be present.

Given that the presence of a legally armed citizen is foreseeable. For the Officers responding here;have your Departments developed protocols for you to follow? Or is there "a gap" in your training..... that could leave you making it up as you go... and possibly be left hanging in the wind by your command/political structure. A lawyer representing his/her client; would have a duty to his client, to exploit a perceived training gap.

Edit: most civilians ( except for students with active shooter/ALICE Training) won't have any training in what to do or how to respond;

Finally in this day and age; watch out for cameras....... I was surprised at the number of student videos that came out of Fla during and after the shooting on the 14th

Be safe out there! and lets hope we never find ourselves in that situation.

 

[Cal44]

So, if you are told to evacuate, should you just run out hands up with the other innocents and say nothing, or should you tell one of the officers you are carrying?

I'm assuming, for this question, your weapon is well concealed and doesn't print.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Cal44........ that's the problem.....you can't run out yelling........ "I've got a gun...I've got a gun!!"


Question for the Officers present..... how are you trained to respond if you were caught in this situation.... armed and off duty.

Times have changed; but IIRC my Dad (Police Capt)always carried an ID card much like my Pa CC licence/permit in his wallet...... but didn't always carry a badge or a "Creds" case.

LOL maybe one of those " Concealed Carry badges" would come in handy after all !!!!!!

 

[Ozark Marine]

Ken158
Being on high alert is no reason for a LEO to abuse any citizen by putting them to the ground.
If they can't handle the stress before, during and after training get out of law enforcement.

It's not like being in the military.
LEO'S are civilians.
No better than any city worker.

 

[nachogrande]

DON'T KEEP IT A SECRET, SPEAK UP.

While not yelling, "I have a gun". I think I'd let whoever know in a calm voice (hopefully) "I am a licensed concealed carrier, my weapon is ..., my license is ..., both rotator cuffs are bad, please use 2 sets of handcuffs. & DON'T TAZE ME BRO.

 

[Whitwabit]

for the LEO's here :

I have a shoulder .. left one . I am not able to raise my shoulder above my head .. so right arm up and left one a half mast sort of ..

what would a LEO do in a situation like that?? many of us old folks have joint problems ...

 

[BAM-BAM]

This thread just got me motivated to order a 2 ID Window Bi-fold wallet.....(my old wallet is falling apart anyway)...off Amazon.


one clear pocket for my drivers licence and one for my PA "License to Carry Firearms" ....... I can flip the "L to C " up and out..... holding it up and out above my head........................still allows me to display my Drivers licence without exposing my CC.

not perfect but ..... should give pause and have CC licence clearly visible to officers......and if they think it's Police ID (from a distance)...... so much the better I'm thinking.

 

[dben002]

<--------that be me......

I carry a 45 appendix, can raise hands above head, place hands on top or back of head etc..etc..etc...never print....not for a second.....

what are you people wearing ???????????????

 

[BAM-BAM]

<--------that be me......

I carry a 45 appendix, can raise hands above head, place hands on top or back of head etc..etc..etc...never print....not for a second.....

what are you people wearing ???????????????

I think the point, as I see it, is:

First;you are not just going to keep walking, eventually you will most likely have to interact with the Police........what happens if they instruct you to "pull your covering garment up and turn around" or pull it away from your body. In the Fla. incident students were instructed to drop their back-packs , while covered by Officers with ARs, before proceeding ......

2nd in my case, a lot of the year I wear an open front ''Shirt", LL Bean flannel lined in Spring and Fall or "fishing style" shirt (Summer) over a t-shirt..... if it's windy I won't be able to button or use my elbows to lock the shirt to my side.

 

[nachogrande]

DO WHAT HE SAY, DO WHAT HE SAY!

This thread just got me motivated to order a 2 ID Window Bi-fold wallet.....(my old wallet is falling apart anyway)...off Amazon.


one clear pocket for my drivers licence and one for my PA "License to Carry Firearms" ....... I can flip the "L to C " up and out..... holding it up and out above my head........................still allows me to display my Drivers licence without exposing my CC.

not perfect but ..... should give pause and have CC licence clearly visible to officers......and if they think it's Police ID (from a distance)...... so much the better I'm thinking.

If told to put your hands up & make no sudden moves, I'd go with that, as best you can. Going into a pocket for your CCL BEFORE you are told to do so,