Lee crimping problem .223

[thumbs]

I just want to suggest something you might not be doing. Are you chamfering the inside of your case mouth so the bullet can get started in? If not this could crush your case when you seat the bullet. Don

Yes thanks. I think the crushing of the case is because I was trying to increase the crimp with the bullet seating crimping die. I thought it wasn't set low enough to make the crimp. when I lowerd the die it forced down on the shoulder of the case and bulged or crushed the case where the shoulder and the body of the case come together.

 

[PDL]

Thanks guys

Well the problem is I can't get the crimp to crimp the bullet in the channel. I've been all through adjusting every which way. I read and adjusted all the dies many times.

This is the problem. I adjust according to the instructions. I screw the crimping die down until it touches the shell casing. I want a crimp so I lower the shell and screw the die in another 1/4 turn. Then I made sure the bullet seater is backed out far enough as not to seat the bullet all the way. I put the bullet on the casing and raise the shell and bullet into the die. When I adjust the bullet seater to the proper OAL the opening of the case is at the channel. I can move the bullet in the channel back and forth. It is crimped enough to keep it from pulling out of the casing but not enough to hold the bullet in position. I can slide it back and forth in the channel. When I screw the crimp part of the die down a little more to "tweek" the crimp it crushes the shell. I can't seem to find out how to get the crimp tight in the channel without distorting the brass. The bullet won't stay put long enough to go the the factory crimp die. I've thrown out about 10 cases that have been crushed trying to get the crimp right.

I think someone above was pointing you in the right direction. From what you said here, you're adjusting things backwards.

You need to back out the seating STEM so it doesn't do anything at first. Run a resized/primed/powdered case up in the press.

Screw the seating/crimping DIE in till it just touches the case. Then back it out a couple of turns.

Put a bullet in position and run the case back up into the die.

Now screw the seating STEM down and continue adjusting it till you've got the bullet at the correct OAL.
Once you've got the OAL correct, back the seating STEM out enough turns so it won't be anywhere near the round.

Run the round back into the die and screw the crimping/seating DIE down till it just touches the case mouth. Lower the round and screw the DIE down 1/4 turn (you can adjust it down more if you want more crimp).

OK, at this point you've got a round with the bullet properly seated and the crimp where you want it. You just need to put the pieces together.

Now lock the DIE body, run the round back up into it, screw the seating STEM down till it touchs the bullet nose and you're all set.

Slight variations in case length should'nt be a real problem. But it is better if they're all the same length. Your length gauge is set so that it cuts cases that are too long and don't meet specifications. That type won't get all your cases even untill they've stretched over the limit. For most shooting applications I don't worry about slight differences. If you use the optional Lee Factory Crimp Die you pretty much don't have to worry about it at all.

 

[sourdough44]

You say you have a Lee FCD with the set? If so I would just seat the bullet with the seating die adjusted so it provides NO crimp, then give it a light crimp with the FCD as a separate step. Some brass/bullet combos work better than others.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of a die problem. The next thing I would do is try different brass. That 'crimp groove' on the bullet can end up anywhere, just go for proper COL for your use.

One other thing to add, slight variations in case length can potentially cause you problems when crimping with the seating die. Much less of an issue with a FCD.

 

[thumbs]

Hi Guys

I'm completely frustrated. I spent the last 2 hours working with this thing again. To tell you the truth I don't have a clue what I tried and what I haven't. Something is wrong. Ok it may be me but something is wrong. Maybe it's the bullets. I am trying to reload Hornaby Soft Point 55gr bullets with the cannellure. The bullets seem tight until I get to the proper oal then they are loose in the cannellure. I am told by Lee it makes no difference if there is a cannellure or not it should hold the bullet anywhere on the bullet. I am "positive" I have the dies set to Lee's instructions. I have reset them 10 times. Maybe this combination of bullet and brass won't work. Has anyone loaded the Hornaby Soft Point 55gr bullets in AR.223 Federial brass?

I will re read all the suggestions and try all of them again one by one. I do have some Hornaby VMax 55gr bullets that I will try to see if they work better. Last time I loaded the .223 I used the VMax bullets in the Federal brass and it seemed fine.

Even with the new dies the mouth of the brass measured .219 when it comes out of the sizing die.

If my tone is harsh it's just my frustration with myself. Not pointed at anyone but me. I just hate it when I can't figure things out. I know rifle is a bit different but never had a problem setting up any of my pistol calibers. Set them to the instructions and was loading in 15 minuts max. Oh well I'll get back to it after lunch.

 

[PDL]

Missed the fact that you had the FCD. In that case I agree that it's better to just used the crimp/seating die to seat. Then use the FCD to do the crimping. As I said, the FCD is less likely to be effected by any slight difference in case length.

So you can still follow most of what I posted above. Just leave out adjusting the crimp/seat to crimp. Then follow Lee's instructions for the FCD to do your crimping.

 

[sourdough44]

I had a situation a few years ago similar to yours. I was loading 'bulk' 150 grain 30 cal FMJ bullets in once fired 300 WSM cases. Once the cases were resized the bullet would slip into the case neck during seating. This was an issue with the match-up of the Federal cases & the bulk FMJ bullets. I never had a problem with Sierra or Hornady bullets.

I had to go so far as to put the slightest of crimp on the mouth, to hold the bullet in position until some crimp was applied. The bullets were slightly undersized compared to regular hunting bullets. I was only loading a few to start off a sighting session. Just saying, sometimes you have to work around a problem or issue. I'd bet if you were able to change brass things would go better.

 

[thumbs]

Got it (I think)

First of all be kind. I realize I am an idiot. I know it now.

Also many thanks to all that stayed with me on this. I know someone said this but.........

Well I think I got it.. I kept saying I thought it was biting at the mouth and not down the barrel of the bullet. In other words the neck was not against the bullet. Wellllllll guess what.

All of these casings are shorter than my case trimmer. My trimmer is the Lee one that has the rod that bottoms out at the bottom of the case and cuts whatever it has to to allow the tool to bottom.

Now remember the the bullet would slip in the cannellure? Well there is a reason for that. There was a burr on the end of the casings. I did have to trim one or two of the casings and deburred them inside and out. I had no idea I had to deburr the case even if it wasn't trimmed. Daaaaa. Oh well live and learn.

At least I think that was the problem. I also extended oal just a bit. Now because of the different lengths of the casings some are in the cannellure but only a couple. I started to load after resetting the dies and loaded one or two with no problems. I thought I had it made. Then I loaded another with the mouth in the cannellure and it was loose. I decided to deburr the thing and restarted the process on the caseing. It fit fine. I also wrote down all the lengths of the shell casings with a burr and no burr setup. I loaded a few and those that I didn't deburr were loose. I then went through the rest of the casings and deburred them all. Since then no loose bullets. I loaded a total of 50 rounds. Next time I load will probably tell the real story but I think we got it.

Your suggestions made me check and recheck what I was doing and helped considerably in the process. In fact I think someone asked the question of deburring. I said I did because I deburred the trimmed cases. I thought it wasn't necessary if I didn't trim the casing. Well I was wrong..

I'll let you know the next time I load as to what the outcome is. I really do think we got it though.

Thanks a ton

 

[Hobie1]

Here's how much a standard 7/8" die moves when turned: Standard reloading dies have a 7/8 -14 body thread. The table below show the effect of backing the die out the stated amount.
TurnsDistance
1/8. 0089"
1/4. 0178"
1/2. 0357"
1. 0714"

BTW, have you measured the bullets themselves? It's possible but unlikely you have some undersize bullets. I measured some of the same kind you're trying to use and they measure .224 up to the cannelure.
My once fired brass is .230 unsized, then .222 f/l sized.

Hobie

 

[thumbs]

Here's how much a standard 7/8" die moves when turned: Standard reloading dies have a 7/8 -14 body thread. The table below show the effect of backing the die out the stated amount.
TurnsDistance
1/8. 0089"
1/4. 0178"
1/2. 0357"
1. 0714"

BTW, have you measured the bullets themselves? It's possible but unlikely you have some undersize bullets. I measured some of the same kind you're trying to use and they measure .224 up to the cannelure.
My once fired brass is .230 unsized, then .222 f/l sized.

Hobie

Yep I did. The bullets are .223 up to the cannellure. Once fired brass is .260 unsized then .219 f/l sized.

 

[jepp2]

Yep I did. The bullets are .223 up to the cannellure

Did you measure them with a micrometer? They are supposed to be .224" diameter.

 

[thumbs]

Did you measure them with a micrometer? They are supposed to be .224" diameter.

I thought that a bit odd also. Yes they are .223. I checked several. All I measured were .223.

I just measured a few again. I should have known. I have one of those digital HF slide calipers. They measure .223 consistently. I don't see an adjustment. I then picked up my Starrett micrometer and it measures .224. I think I believe my Starrett.

I went to Cabela's and took a look at their calipers. The RCBS, other than the paint looks exactly like the HF.

 

[thndrchiken]

One other thought here, are the bullets boat tail's? I already know the Vmax's are. It's possible that when starting the bullet it's not being seated straight and intruducing some stretching on the neck.

 

[thumbs]

One other thought here, are the bullets boat tail's? I already know the Vmax's are. It's possible that when starting the bullet it's not being seated straight and intruducing some stretching on the neck.

No these are Hornaby Soft point, flat bottom.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6133

 

[crracer_712]

Just thought of something. I did try it without a crimp. I adjusted the bullet seat die for no crimp. I had the same results, the bullet was tight until it got to the cannellure then it rattled in the "grove".

I don't see a problem here. When the connelure is positioned in the case mouth, the bullet will be loose until you use the FCD to crimp the case mouth in the connelure.

 

[thumbs]

I don't see a problem here. When the connelure is positioned in the case mouth, the bullet will be loose until you use the FCD to crimp the case mouth in the connelure.

The problem is the bullet will rattle in the cannelure. It's so loose when you take it out of the seating die oal of the cartridge is shortened because the bullet drops to the top of the cannellure. If it were stable in the neck until I could get it to the FCD that would be fine. Unfortunately that isn't the case.

 

[crracer_712]

If the bullet will stay in and only drop to the edge of the connelure, to where the entire connelure is no longer visible, this isn't going to cause you a problem. I'm sure you are concerned about the OAL being shorter than what you are reading, but it won't be an issue(i.e. pressure isn't going to be affected enough to even notice). Go ahead and crimp it with the FCD

 

[crracer_712]

If you are concerned about the pressure from the OAL being shorter, think about this. They give you a start load and a Max load, and all that area in between. They only list the one OAL for all that area, Start to Max. Going a little shorter on OAL won't affect the feeding of the round in to your weapon. The only time you are going to get pressure greater than what they list is if you load to MAX and have a shorter OAL.

 

[thumbs]

If you are concerned about the pressure from the OAL being shorter, think about this. They give you a start load and a Max load, and all that area in between. They only list the one OAL for all that area, Start to Max. Going a little shorter on OAL won't affect the feeding of the round in to your weapon. The only time you are going to get pressure greater than what they list is if you load to MAX and have a shorter OAL.

Thanks Rod

I "think" I "may" have it figured out. I have about 50 rounds to load so that will probably tell the story.

What I am trying to do is within the bounds of the specs. I measured the oal of the AR.223 Federials and checked the oal in the Lee book. There is quite a difference. No matter what I do I am well within the two. To tell you the truth my problem is it just isn't right. I want it put where I want it put and it should be able to be put there. It's just a "why won't this work" thing. Kinda tryin to solve the problem as to why it won't stay tight at the cannellure. Lee says it should crimp anywhere along the bullet within spec. Just tryin to learn something. LOL Even if it drives me nuts. LOL

 

[thumbs]

As an update to the loose bullet problem. Well I just loaded 70 rounds using the same setup as the last time. The only difference is that I deburred all the casings no matter if I trimmed them or not. I had some range brass that was a bit long so I had the opportunity to see if that would have any effect which it didn't. Since the cases were different lengths they sat at different positions in the cannellure. No problem they were all tight.

Thanks for all your help guys.

 

[oneyeopn]

Thumbs....I learned a lot just reading this thread, I just ordered 500 bullets with cannalures, all of the bullets I have loaded before didn't have one and am trying to be ready.