Luger P.08 age and value?

[Andyd]

....
No Lugers were manufactured with out serial numbers (or proof marks or Manufacturers markings),,That includes Military or Commercial production.

Who would know after a century???? In the 1960s there were still frames taken out of the trash bins by employees in German gun factories that were not up to specification and that is mentioned in the Korth book by Morgenstern.
Even if the parts had been stolen in Germany from the factory, which we have no proof for, the statute of limitations for that were and are 20 years in Germany.

 

[Kurusu]

It may very well have been refinished, I couldn't tell without having it in hand, but you can't base it on "in too-good shape to be original finish". There are superb condition Lugers out there are 100% original.

Yes there are. And they have the serial number(in 3 places), and the last 2 digits of the same serial number in most parts. And they have proof marks either civilian or military.

 

[Andyd]

One thing is certain, it is not an 06 frame, it is a frame without a safety, yet without provision for the shoulder stock. The frame was not made by Mauser and strawing of small parts is present. If the gun is still rust blued, which is easy to verify, a refinish is unlikely but not impossible. The gun is in .30 Luger, a calibre that was mostly used in the early years, pre-1908, and after the treaty of Versailles.

From a look at the photos I think a refinish that would erase all markings has not taken place but without a close look at it, it is just speculation.

Fact is, that Walther in Ulm made Walther PP in post-war Germany without serial numbers on either frame or slide. I have seen one personally.

 

[Gene L]

Fact is, that Walther in Ulm made Walther PP in post-war Germany without serial numbers on either frame or slide. I have seen one personally.

These PP pistols you mention were captured not in Post War, but during the last days of WW 2 before they were finished and were mis-matched and unproven. Lots more about them on the Walther forum. Bringbacks captured at the factory and put together from parts.

Post War Germany wasn't allowed to manufacture PP pistols at all for quite a while, in fact.

 

[2152hq]

Who would know after a century???? In the 1960s there were still frames taken out of the trash bins by employees in German gun factories that were not up to specification and that is mentioned in the Korth book by Morgenstern.
Even if the parts had been stolen in Germany from the factory, which we have no proof for, the statute of limitations for that were and are 20 years in Germany.

Like I said, You can rationalize it away any way you chose to.

There were frames and parts stolen out of the two USA gun factorys I worked in in the 70's. That was a long time ago to many.
But the fact remains that the gun(s) and parts were stolen.

Like I said a good look at the frame (where the ser# on any Luger ever mfg'd by any one of the number of different makers) is supposed to be will tell you if the area has been dinked with and the number removed.
All we know is that there is no Ser#.

IF it was removed,,IF the answer is yes,,then the mfg'rs applied ser# has been removed, obliterated or altered.
Even you know what that means as far as US Fed Law.

Doesn't matter by who,,when,,why.
Doesn't matter what happened in the Korth Werks.
Doesn't matter what may have been at DWM if someone got sticky fingers.
Doesn't matter what the shoplifting statutes are in Germany.


It's simply the mfg's applied ser# has either been removed,,or it hasn't.
That's the first question that absolutely has to be answered before going forward.
..and it's pretty simple to see. But we haven't.
So it's the end of the trail.

End of my story
Plain as that.
NGIWASNIA

 

[Warren Sear]

Such as here, 1912:

Notice that the word "Luger" does not appear anywhere in the ad.

 

[schutzen-jager]

One thing is certain, it is not an 06 frame, it is a frame without a safety, yet without provision for the shoulder stock. The frame was not made by Mauser and strawing of small parts is present. If the gun is still rust blued, which is easy to verify, a refinish is unlikely but not impossible. The gun is in .30 Luger, a calibre that was mostly used in the early years, pre-1908, and after the treaty of Versailles.

From a look at the photos I think a refinish that would erase all markings has not taken place but without a close look at it, it is just speculation.

Fact is, that Walther in Ulm made Walther PP in post-war Germany without serial numbers on either frame or slide. I have seen one personally.

all handguns legally produced in Germany { + every other European country i know of } required registered serial numbers both pre + post WWII ! - many had stock lugs ground off to make them comply with conflicting NFA regulations regarding shoulder stocks prior to 1972 - Ulm + other German manufacturers were not allowed to produce weapons at all till sometime in the 1950's by treaty -

 

[diyj98]

Yes there are. And they have the serial number(in 3 places), and the last 2 digits of the same serial number in most parts. And they have proof marks either civilian or military.

That's not quite correct. There's been Lugers with no serial numbers and/or proof marks talked about on Jan Still's Luger forum as well as others. I'm not saying the gun in the original post is one of them, but they are out there.

 

[Absalom]

Notice that the word "Luger" does not appear anywhere in the ad.

Indeed. The adoption of the Luger instead of the Parabellum moniker both for the pistol and for the 9mm caliber is generally credited to a gentleman named Hans Tauscher, which explains why it was largely confined to the English-speaking world.

He was a sales agent residing in New York City who represented DWM, manufacturer of the pistol, in US Army trials and then shepherded commercial distribution overseas.

US sales ads used the Luger name from early on, like this Abercrombie & Fitch catalog from 1910:

 

[diyj98]

US sales ads used the Luger name from early on, like this Abercrombie & Fitch catalog from 1910:

Don't you wish Grandpa would have stocked up on a few of these for gifts for his grandkids. I know the value of $25 in 1910 is about $675 in 2020, but that's still a bargain

 

[Andyd]

all handguns legally produced in Germany { + every other European country i know of } required registered serial numbers both pre + post WWII ! - many had stock lugs ground off to make them comply with conflicting NFA regulations regarding shoulder stocks prior to 1972 - Ulm + other German manufacturers were not allowed to produce weapons at all till sometime in the 1950's by treaty -

Schürzenjäger,

you are not making much sense, Ulm, 1972 what about the Olympics? Where did the guns have to be marked in Germany? On the frame or on the slide? This is my last post in this B.S. thread, Du weisst ja eh alles besser.

 

[schutzen-jager]

Schürzenjäger,

you are not making much sense, Ulm, 1972 what about the Olympics? Where did the guns have to be marked in Germany? On the frame or on the slide? This is my last post in this B.S. thread, Du weisst ja eh alles besser.

you stated in your post # 43 - that you had a post war Ulm produced PP with no serial # - Germany has required serial numbers + proofing of all legally produced firearms since 1890 - the 1972 reference was to U.S. ATF ruling on P08 , C96 , + other stock lugged pistols + NFA status -

 

[Kurusu]

That's not quite correct. There's been Lugers with no serial numbers and/or proof marks talked about on Jan Still's Luger forum as well as others. I'm not saying the gun in the original post is one of them, but they are out there.

How many of those are aknowledged? And what is the explanation offered?

Asking because I don't have Jan Still's book.

 

[schutzen-jager]

any without serial numbers did not leave factory thru legal channels - lunch box specials - slave labor sneaks for resistance fighters - post war parts assembled for souvenirs - between 1968 + 1986 thousands of parts kits less receivers were imported here because of U.S. import restrictions , after restrictions were lifted in 1986 many bare frames were imported , receivers all had to be marked + serial numbered to import them -

 

[diyj98]

How many of those are aknowledged? And what is the explanation offered?

Asking because I don't have Jan Still's book.

I've never read any estimate on numbers. I've heard various theories such as the lunchbox specials, gun built late war just post war from parts or even rejected frames. I doubt it's a huge number, but I have seen photos of them and read accounts from noted collectors about them.

 

[CZU]

Back to the Luger, since it appears to be DWM manufactured (no stock lug unless ground off) then it was made before mid 1913. If it is original finish then the interior of the frame should be in the white. Also, all small parts should be a straw finish.

 

[Kurusu]

I've never read any estimate on numbers. I've heard various theories such as the lunchbox specials, gun built late war just post war from parts or even rejected frames. I doubt it's a huge number, but I have seen photos of them and read accounts from noted collectors about them.

Right after WWI ended there were a few odd years indeed. Lots of parts and unfinished pistols around when the gun industry went from full speed production to a sudden stop in a Country in internal turmoil and an uncertain future. This pistol could very well have come from this period. But my guess is we will never know.

I don't favor a WWII scenario much just because that frame didn't come from Mauser.

 

[Kurusu]

Back to the Luger, since it appears to be DWM manufactured (no stock lug unless ground off) then it was made before mid 1913. If it is original finish then the interior of the frame should be in the white. Also, all small parts should be a straw finish.

Agree on DWM parts(the frame at least). But it appears it did not came out of DWM as a full pistol, at least not "officially".

 

[CZU]

Agree on DWM parts(the frame at least). But it appears it did not came out of DWM as a full pistol, at least not "officially".

It also has a non-relieved sear bar, something that didn't change until around 1916 if I'm remembering correctly.

I would like to see a top pic and a front pic.

 

[Masterbuck54]

photos added

It also has a non-relieved sear bar, something that didn't change until around 1916 if I'm remembering correctly.

I would like to see a top pic and a front pic.

Here are some additional photos.

Masterbuck54