M&P 15-22 POI shift...solutions?

[zreed042]

Now I know that a thread with a very similar name as this one was created about a year ago...I decided to make a new thread and not risk taking heat for resurrecting an old thread.

Ok, on to the issue. I've had a very similar problem as discussed here.

In brief, the gun heats up and the POI shifts because the plastic upper expands, contracts, etc.

Is there any solution to this problem? I was thinking on going to the extreme of designing an upper in Autocad Inventor and having someone CNC it out a block of aluminum.

 

[true_shooter]

hmmmmmm...... Never had one heat up to the point of shifting impact, or even to the point of feeling warmer than room temp. I'm not saying this isn't your problem so please take no offense, but have you had another experienced shooter fire your weapon after you notice this issue? how far are you shooting? how much is the bullet shifting? after how many shots fired are you noticing the problem? how are you shooting ie standing, sitting, prone, bipod or no bipod?

 

[tacticaledge]

your barrel nut might be a little loose.

 

[c7aea]

The only POI issue I have heard about is using a bipod if you place a lot of pressure on it. Its enough to flex the polymer in the rail/assemblies.

 

[tacticaledge]

that could be ive heard that a bipod can do that also....

 

[zreed042]

Hmm, I'll see about tightening down that barrel nut. I can do it with a jerry rigged PVC pipe right?

 

[tacticaledge]

I heard you can but make sure you hold the barrel with a barrel vice or youll damage your upper...good luck let me what you find out.... hope that helps.

 

[wolverine]

Morning zreed042

My present 15-22 has the same issue (sort of), a very inconsistent POI.

I have been fighting with accuracy problems since I bough the 15-22. It usually shoots within a few inches of POA at 50 yards but you just never know where in that POI is going to be.

In fact I sent it in to S&W for accuracy repair & it came back with a new barrel, new bolt, & new trigger group. It's a bit better but still I never know exactly where it will POI in relation to the POA.

I am just not that happy with the bench rested accuracy of my 15-22. It's acceptable for offhand shooting at 25 yards & will even scare the hell out of a grapefruit at 50 yards. It just won't put (all) the bullets in the same place at 50 yards.

Some of the things I have found in tracking the bench rested inaccuracy of my 15-22 are:

-With the plastic receiver & plastic upper it is very temperature sensitive as it goes from warm, to cold, back to hot. Especially if I start out with a warm gun from the house then take it out in sub 30°f temps then the sun warms it back up again during shooting. (about 4"-5" groups at 50 yards under these conditions).

-The little plastic marvel is also very sensitive to how it's rested on a shooting bag or other gun rest. Just a few ounces of variable pressure on that flexible fore-end makes a big difference in where the bullet impacts at 50 yards. I tried removing the front fore-end cap to sort of free float the barrel & that actually made the grouping worse so I put it back on.

-Also something I haven't totally figured out yet but there seems to be an issue with the bullet lube effecting the POI vs POA on a cold barrel gun vs a warm barrel gun. The first few cold barrel shots always go someplace other than where aimed by a few inches.

I have made a couple of new friends at my local shooting range that have the 15-22 & as far as I can tell their 15-22's group about the same as mine does at 50 yards (rested). OK offhand at 25 yards & will shoot a 100 round very ragged hole in the target at 50 yards but the total group spread is usually well over 4" at 50 yards rested.

 

[tacticaledge]

Morning zreed042

My present 15-22 has the same issue (sort of), a very inconsistent POI.

I have been fighting with accuracy problems since I bough the 15-22. It usually shoots within a few inches of POA at 50 yards but you just never know where in that POI is going to be.

In fact I sent it in to S&W for accuracy repair & it came back with a new barrel, new bolt, & new trigger group. It's a bit better but still I never know exactly where it will POI in relation to the POA.

I am just not that happy with the bench rested accuracy of my 15-22. It's acceptable for offhand shooting at 25 yards & will even scare the hell out of a grapefruit at 50 yards. It just won't put (all) the bullets in the same place at 50 yards.

Some of the things I have found in tracking the bench rested inaccuracy of my 15-22 are:

-With the plastic receiver & plastic upper it is very temperature sensitive as it goes from warm, to cold, back to hot. Especially if I start out with a warm gun from the house then take it out in sub 30°f temps then the sun warms it back up again during shooting. (about 4"-5" groups at 50 yards under these conditions).

-The little plastic marvel is also very sensitive to how it's rested on a shooting bag or other gun rest. Just a few ounces of variable pressure on that flexible fore-end makes a big difference in where the bullet impacts at 50 yards. I tried removing the front fore-end cap to sort of free float the barrel & that actually made the grouping worse so I put it back on.

-Also something I haven't totally figured out yet but there seems to be an issue with the bullet lube effecting the POI vs POA on a cold barrel gun vs a warm barrel gun. The first few cold barrel shots always go someplace other than where aimed by a few inches.

I have made a couple of new friends at my local shooting range that have the 15-22 & as far as I can tell their 15-22's group about the same as mine does at 50 yards (rested). OK offhand at 25 yards & will shoot a 100 round very ragged hole in the target at 50 yards but the total group spread is usually well over 4" at 50 yards rested.

wolverine check out my post 15-22 accuracy for the non believers this was as I was sighting in my gun @ 50 yards with bulk federal ammo as far as your gun goes dunno what to tell ya. maybe try different ammo might help your poi problems good luck guys hope this helps.

 

[wolverine]

Afternoon tacticaledge

Yes, I saw that. I presume those circles are on 1" increments? If so those really aren't that great of "50 yard" groupings (if shot from a bench rested gun). Still a bit better grouping than my 15-22 will shoot but really nothing to brag about. It also looks like your POI changed slightly between those two targets.

All my other .22s will easily keep the total bullet spread to under 1.5" at that same 50 yards with my better bolt 22s to well under 1.25".
Bench rested --even my AR/M-4 .22 CMMG will shoot consecutive 50 yard groups smaller than 2" TOTAL spread with most going under 1.5" (using CCI standard no less).

I would be more interested in seeing your 50 yard target groups shot in 10 shot groups starting with a cold gun/cold barrel then progressing to a warm gun warm barrel.

 

[true_shooter]

wolverine.... what type of sights are you using, are you using a bipod or sand bags? if sand bags is what your using are you resting the rifle's barrel on the bags or the forend on the bags. My 15-22 will shoot near 1.5" at 50 yrds if i do my part.

 

[true_shooter]

Also let me say what many others have said before, the mp 15-22 was not is not and will never be a rifle meant for accuracy? some of you might be expecting to much out of your rifle.

 

[wolverine]

wolverine.... what type of sights are you using, are you using a bipod or sand bags? if sand bags is what your using are you resting the rifle's barrel on the bags or the forend on the bags. My 15-22 will shoot near 1.5" at 50 yrds if i do my part.

Afternoon true_shooter

Right now my 15-22 has a Leupold Mark-4 (3-9) on it. I have also tried My V-3 Leupold 3-9 & a Nikon 3-9. They all shoot & group about the same.

As for resting the gun? -- I normally use a rabbit eared rear sand bag & a sand filled front bag but have also used my solid mounted adjustable precision rest. Usually rested on the lower edge of the rifle butt & on the rear part of the fore-end. Shooting on a 1" sighting dot at 50 yards the scope cross hairs stay on the center of the dot all the way through the trigger pull with scope cross hairs still on the dot somewhere completely through the recoil. (basically the gun isn't moving all the way through the shot then just a bit of movement upon recoil).

I never tried resting on the barrel itself, can't see any reason to as I would never shoot it that way anyhow.

In my eyes- for a plastic receiver, plastic upper, blow back AR type 22 to shoot (consistently) 1.5" at 50 yards should be in the record book somewhere. Right now I would settle for 2.5" at 50 yards or even a consistent 3". I can get a few 10 shot 3"groups but it sure isn't the norm.

I shoot 4" steel disks at 50 yards & almost NEVER miss with my bolt guns or even my CMMG AR/M-4 but using the 15-22 I can't say it is a sure thing with enough misses to make me a very unhappy 15-22 owner at the moment.

 

[true_shooter]

Afternoon true_shooter

Right now my 15-22 has a Leupold Mark-4 (3-9) on it. I have also tried My V-3 Leupold 3-9 & a Nikon 3-9. They all shoot & group about the same.

As for resting the gun? -- I normally use a rabbit eared rear sand bag & a sand filled front bag but have also used my solid mounted adjustable precision rest. Usually rested on the lower edge of the rifle butt & on the rear part of the fore-end. Shooting on a 1" sighting dot at 50 yards the scope cross hairs stay on the center of the dot all the way through the trigger pull with scope cross hairs still on the dot somewhere completely through the recoil. (basically the gun isn't moving all the way through the shot then just a bit of movement upon recoil).

I never tried resting on the barrel itself, can't see any reason to as I would never shoot it that way anyhow.

In my eyes- for a plastic receiver, plastic upper, blow back AR type 22 to shoot (consistently) 1.5" at 50 yards should be in the record book somewhere. Right now I would settle for 2.5" at 50 yards or even a consistent 3". I can get a few 10 shot 3"groups but it sure isn't the norm.

I shoot 4" steel disks at 50 yards & almost NEVER miss with my bolt guns or even my CMMG AR/M-4 but using the 15-22 I can't say it is a sure thing with enough misses to make me a very unhappy 15-22 owner at the moment.

I only mentioned resting on the barrel to make sure that wasn't what you were doing lol. from your set-up, you should be able to get much better groups than your currently getting, have you tried using any match ammo such as Eley? i think somebody already asked you but is your barrel nut tight? how does the crown on your barrel look? and 1.5" is probably a bit generous lol I may have shot that group a handfull of times but usually in the 2-2.5" range EXcluding fliers.

 

[wolverine]

Also let me say what many others have said before, the mp 15-22 was not is not and will never be a rifle meant for accuracy? some of you might be expecting to much out of your rifle.

Afternoon (again) true_shooter

I totally agree that a plastic upper/lower receiver blow back semi-auto rifle will never be a tac driver but I bought it as a trainer to use instead of my M-4 & AR's (mainly a noise issue where I usually shoot) so would like it to at least be capable of controlled head shots at 50 yards rested.

I have been so unimpressed with the accuracy of the 15-22 at 50 yards that I bought a CMMG dedicated upper 22 to use as my current trainer. Even the CMMG isn't a precise shooter as far as sub 2-MOA goes but at least it can consistently hit a 4" steel plate at 50 yards rested on a car fender or a fence post.

The 15-22 seems OK as an off-hand trainer at 25 yards but anything more precision that that is asking a lot. I guess I just expected a bit better CONSISTENT accuracy for the high entry price of the S&W 15-22.

 

[tacticaledge]

Afternoon tacticaledge

Yes, I saw that. I presume those circles are on 1" increments? If so those really aren't that great of "50 yard" groupings (if shot from a bench rested gun). Still a bit better grouping than my 15-22 will shoot but really nothing to brag about. It also looks like your POI changed slightly between those two targets.

All my other .22s will easily keep the total bullet spread to under 1.5" at that same 50 yards with my better bolt 22s to well under 1.25".
Bench rested --even my AR/M-4 .22 CMMG will shoot consecutive 50 yard groups smaller than 2" TOTAL spread with most going under 1.5" (using CCI standard no less).

I would be more interested in seeing your 50 yard target groups shot in 10 shot groups starting with a cold gun/cold barrel then progressing to a warm gun warm barrel.

yes poi changed I adjusted my scope that was after the gun had about 300 round through it so I Still say its accurate.....

 

[tacticaledge]

Also let me say what many others have said before, the mp 15-22 was not is not and will never be a rifle meant for accuracy? some of you might be expecting to much out of your rifle.

True shooter is very correct, wolverine if you want accuracy from a .22 get a bolt action or for more accuracy get a bolt action .17 hmr

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

With the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, cycle a few rounds with the charging handle. Take a look at the bullets. You may find that the bolt is putting a gouge in the bullet right below the one it is feeding into the chamber.



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[wolverine]

I only mentioned resting on the barrel to make sure that wasn't what you were doing lol. from your set-up, you should be able to get much better groups than your currently getting, have you tried using any match ammo such as Eley? i think somebody already asked you but is your barrel nut tight? how does the crown on your barrel look? and 1.5" is probably a bit generous lol I may have shot that group a handfull of times but usually in the 2-2.5" range EXcluding fliers.

Afternoon (again) true_shooter

I have tried some Eley target ammo but not much improvement over the CCI standard or CCI GreenTag. I usually shoot the CCI standard as it is pretty subsonic for my shooting area.

I can't answer on the barrel nut tightness as S&W just installed a new barrel to try & correct the inaccuracy issue. I do have a barrel nut wrench that I used to check the original barrel for being tight (it was).

Barrel crown looks OK using a magnifier & I have tried shooting it with the flash suppressor removed. I have even tried single round hand loading & different mags with little improvement.

The biggest issue seems to be due to the plastic upper/lower elasticity as even a slight difference in pulling the gun into the rest or how it's held makes a big difference in POI vs POI.

For a $250.00 gun it would be OK but for a $500.00+ gun it isn't.

 

[wolverine]

Afternoon ChattanoogaPhil

Yes, I have looked for bullet to bolt & bullet to chamber contact.

I do get a bit of a mark on first round (hand dropped bolt) into the chamber & a little mark on hand cycled rounds but on auto load no marks or deformed bullets or loose bullets due to hard feed ramp contact.