OP
The Apex doesn't change anything that can't be changed back to stock in about 20 minutes.
M&P 2.0 10mm: The Good, The Bad & The WTH?
- Thread starter Tom S.
- Start date
Yes...if you read your S&W M&P 2.0 Manual, it gives you a chart of optics mounting plates for various red dot sights. The Holosun 507C is the same footprint as the Trijicon RMR, so it uses Plate Type #1. I also used the longer #6-32 screws provided by Holosun with some blue Loctite. Use the correct torque and do not try to over torque the screws. Good luck!
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OP
Received the rebate card today - far quicker than the 10-15 business days they had stated!
DonD
Member
BenU's comment is where I stand. "I guess I lucked out on my 10mm 2.0 as far as the trigger. After reading this I pulled out my original M&P 9mm with an Apex trigger and compared to the 10mm 2.0, there was virtually no difference."
Gunsmithing isn't my favorite task. Don
What were the pull weights between the two?
I guess I'm also one of the lucky ones. My M&P 10mm 4" I got over a month ago has been 100 percent perfect in all areas. Great accuracy, reliability, controls, recoil management, fit, and finish. The trigger may be the best of any of my semi autos, better than both my Sig 365s, Browning HP, CZ 75 with Cajun Gunworks springs, Bersa Thunder, Ruger LCP and 22/45 tactical. My Springfield Armory 1911 .45 has an excellent trigger but the M&P would equal it. The M&P has virtually no creep, a crisp and solid release, and zero overtravel.
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OP
If it's mechanical, I'm interested in tinkering with it. Ran a tap through the offending hole and it was definitely in need of it. Screws/red dot in place and hope to make it to the range next week.
OP
The obligatory "Pics or it didn't happen":
OP
Long over due update!!!
I finally made it to the range. Yes, I know months went by while the gun languished in my safe, but the purchase of a FPC ended my procrastination and Sunday morning found me at the local range.
Unfortunately, I only had one brand of ammo to shoot (I don't reload 10 mm as I don't shoot it much), so I can't really offer a comprehensive report but the ammo I had, which was Blazer 180 gr FMJ, fed and functioned flawlessly. No failures to feed or extract.
Accuracy wasn't as good as I had hoped for. I'm not sure if there is an issue with the red dot or not, but the group size was larger than what I felt it should be. I am going the recheck the mount and since the factory sights are tall enough, try using them for a check. This is the first Blazer ammo I've ever used too, so perhaps that is a factor. At any rate, I expected the accuracy to be in the 2" - 3" range, and it was not.
As with all 10 mm, recoil is stout. That's not a problem per say, but I found an issue with my finger that I've had with some other handguns. My natural grip for me causes my finger tip to point down, which causes the bottom end to get pinched during recoil. It is more noticeable on some guns than others, and this seems to be one of the former. I will experiment with the back straps to see if they will help mitigate this. Another option is to switch hands.
One other pet peeve is loading the magazines. The design of the follower makes it difficult to center the first round when loading. Depressing the back of the follower with a magazine loading aid makes it much easier and once the first round is loaded, the problem goes away. The magazine spring is strong however and as more rounds a loaded, successive rounds become harder to load. A loading aid is highly recommended, especially for older shooter who are losing their hand strength. I don't know of a aid made specifically for the M&P 10 mm mag, but I was able to make a generic unit work - kind of.
So it's a mixed review. Other than the issues pointed out, I didn't experience any of the failures to feed others have reported. I do not believe all the accuracy issue are directly linked to the gun, but will report back if/when I discover the cause.
I finally made it to the range. Yes, I know months went by while the gun languished in my safe, but the purchase of a FPC ended my procrastination and Sunday morning found me at the local range.
Unfortunately, I only had one brand of ammo to shoot (I don't reload 10 mm as I don't shoot it much), so I can't really offer a comprehensive report but the ammo I had, which was Blazer 180 gr FMJ, fed and functioned flawlessly. No failures to feed or extract.
Accuracy wasn't as good as I had hoped for. I'm not sure if there is an issue with the red dot or not, but the group size was larger than what I felt it should be. I am going the recheck the mount and since the factory sights are tall enough, try using them for a check. This is the first Blazer ammo I've ever used too, so perhaps that is a factor. At any rate, I expected the accuracy to be in the 2" - 3" range, and it was not.
As with all 10 mm, recoil is stout. That's not a problem per say, but I found an issue with my finger that I've had with some other handguns. My natural grip for me causes my finger tip to point down, which causes the bottom end to get pinched during recoil. It is more noticeable on some guns than others, and this seems to be one of the former. I will experiment with the back straps to see if they will help mitigate this. Another option is to switch hands.
One other pet peeve is loading the magazines. The design of the follower makes it difficult to center the first round when loading. Depressing the back of the follower with a magazine loading aid makes it much easier and once the first round is loaded, the problem goes away. The magazine spring is strong however and as more rounds a loaded, successive rounds become harder to load. A loading aid is highly recommended, especially for older shooter who are losing their hand strength. I don't know of a aid made specifically for the M&P 10 mm mag, but I was able to make a generic unit work - kind of.
So it's a mixed review. Other than the issues pointed out, I didn't experience any of the failures to feed others have reported. I do not believe all the accuracy issue are directly linked to the gun, but will report back if/when I discover the cause.
After reading all above and all the fixes.......I'll just stick with 1006.
Thanks for the update. As someone else said, I'd prefer a sight that mounts directly to the slide on any pistol. The plate thing just seems like a misguided attempt to keep everyone happy, which is impossible.
My own gun has been functionally trouble-free, but does suffer from the terrible trigger action you describe. I have a couple of 9mm frame-size 2.0s with "acceptable" triggers, but the 10mm is just absolutely terrible - even worse than the trigger of my original M&P 40. I doubt seriously that any amount of shooting I will do will make much difference. It makes shooting accurately tedious and difficult. From a manufacturer that in the past prided themselves on the excellence of their triggers (and barrels), this thing is just nuts.
I guess as an anti-bear/anti-personnel gun that would be used at close range, mine might be considered useful, but in its present condition, that's about all.
My own gun has been functionally trouble-free, but does suffer from the terrible trigger action you describe. I have a couple of 9mm frame-size 2.0s with "acceptable" triggers, but the 10mm is just absolutely terrible - even worse than the trigger of my original M&P 40. I doubt seriously that any amount of shooting I will do will make much difference. It makes shooting accurately tedious and difficult. From a manufacturer that in the past prided themselves on the excellence of their triggers (and barrels), this thing is just nuts.
I guess as an anti-bear/anti-personnel gun that would be used at close range, mine might be considered useful, but in its present condition, that's about all.
Sorry to hear about your accuracy and loading issues with the 10mm, Tom. As I've posted before, I must be one of the lucky owners. I've never had an issue with my 4.6" M&P 10mm 2.0. Accuracy has been outstanding, both with the tall iron sights and with my Holosun 507C red dot. The recoil is not bad at all for me, partially due to the aggressive grip texture...maybe comparable to .45 ACP 1911. I always use a Maglula Universal pistol magazine loader. It handles all magazines from 9mm to .45, both single and double stack, which of course includes 10mm. Give one a try, I think you'll like it and it will definitely save your fingers and make loading magazines a breeze! Good luck!
How were you shooting for group size . Where you setting at a bench using a good rest and shooting at what yardage and group size ?
Try to use a aim point that's larger enough to allow you to see a black ring around your red dot . If you dot optic is the moa version try a 1.5" or 2" black dot for 25 yards . At short yard where I can see your first bullet hole I'll fire at that bullet hole .
Loading the magazine issues , buy a UPLULA to use .
Uplula 9mm magazine loader, universal pistol magazine loader
Try to use a aim point that's larger enough to allow you to see a black ring around your red dot . If you dot optic is the moa version try a 1.5" or 2" black dot for 25 yards . At short yard where I can see your first bullet hole I'll fire at that bullet hole .
Loading the magazine issues , buy a UPLULA to use .
Uplula 9mm magazine loader, universal pistol magazine loader
ultratec00
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I picked up one of the new M&P 10mm PCs a couple weeks ago. Trigger pull breaks crisp and consistent a tad shy of 5 lbs. There was a little hitch I attribute to slop in the actuator. Polished the USB, which helped a little, but overall very acceptable.
Most shooting to date has been open sights with remington 180gr range ammo @ 25 yards. Accuracy is on par with my M&P 1.0 45s, which is saying something. I installed a holosun 507C to test some loads, which is working great so far. The Rem ammo 5 shot groups stayed within 2", which is acceptable to me considering no magnification and its intended application. Zero malfunctions to date with factory and/or reloads. This with 4 different mags.
Most shooting to date has been open sights with remington 180gr range ammo @ 25 yards. Accuracy is on par with my M&P 1.0 45s, which is saying something. I installed a holosun 507C to test some loads, which is working great so far. The Rem ammo 5 shot groups stayed within 2", which is acceptable to me considering no magnification and its intended application. Zero malfunctions to date with factory and/or reloads. This with 4 different mags.
OP
Shot off a bench at 25 yards. Using 2 MOA dot, set at next to lowest setting to remove glare. Been shooting for over 50 years, so not a novice.
I have two (one for a friend) of the Uplula's coming.
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I bought my M&P 4 inch in February and it has been outstanding. Perfect reliability and the trigger is the best of any striker fired gun I have ever shot, and I've shot a bunch! A bit better than my Sig 365 and MUCH better than my Sig 365 XL. Very accurate and because of the tall goofy sights, I can shoot it better than any iron sighted centerfire semi auto that I own. I'm 64 and my eyesight with pistols is not as great as a few years ago.
OP
Maglula's arrived and I can highly recommend them to anyone tired of trying to stuff magazines with their thumbs alone. A bit pricey at $35 but they should last forever.
I'm still angry about my purchase of an M&P 10mm. Sent it back three times, asked questions that were never answered. Tried heavier recoil springs to no avail. My full size M&P 40 runs perfectly and has for six thousand rounds plus. Same bullets in the 40 as the ten. My ten ammunition runs perfectly in two 1911s also.
After many shooting sessions and many failures, I dumped it and walked away from Smith. I can fix a 1911 that's not running but not this thing.
After many shooting sessions and many failures, I dumped it and walked away from Smith. I can fix a 1911 that's not running but not this thing.
rsrocket1
Member
I love my M&P 2.0 10mm. I'm a 16 year veteran of the M&P 40 1.0 with over 100k rounds through it. For about 10 years, it was my only handgun and I was shooting 100-200 rounds a week with it. I put the Apex FSS trigger kit on it after about 5 years of owning it. Before that, accuracy wise, sometimes I'd have good weeks with it, sometimes I'd have bad weeks with it.
After the upgrade, I didn't really see a dramatic improvement with it probably because I was still recoil sensitive. I tried swapping back and forth between the original parts and the Apex kit and was still inconsistent. Then one week, I simply "got it" and have been very accurate with it ever since. When I bought a very inexpensive complete 9mm slide for it, I was just as accurate with 9mm.
I later bought a surplus complete frame for $99 with the original trigger and was thrown back to poor accuracy. I bought another Apex FSS trigger kit for it and was right back to my good accuracy.
When I bought the M&P 2.0 10mm 4.6" gun this spring with the rebate, I was just as accurate with 10mm full house loads as I was with my M&P 40 1.0 with 180g 1000 fps loads, only the aggressive grip texture was noticeably rougher on my hands. I am now just as accurate with both 10mm 180g 1300 fps as I am with my pet 180g 1000 fps 40 S&W loads. I simply notice a little more recoil similar to the difference between 9mm and 40 S&W loads. I can also shoot 40 S&W through the M&P 10 with no problems.
Is the $499 M&P 10 (after rebate) worth it? It is for me. Will I put a Red Dot on it? Probably not. I have them on my P320 40 S&W, PDP and Mk IV 22/45 and love them but if there is any chance I would want a gun for practical purposes and not just paper punching on the range, I'd probably stick with iron sights.
After the upgrade, I didn't really see a dramatic improvement with it probably because I was still recoil sensitive. I tried swapping back and forth between the original parts and the Apex kit and was still inconsistent. Then one week, I simply "got it" and have been very accurate with it ever since. When I bought a very inexpensive complete 9mm slide for it, I was just as accurate with 9mm.
I later bought a surplus complete frame for $99 with the original trigger and was thrown back to poor accuracy. I bought another Apex FSS trigger kit for it and was right back to my good accuracy.
When I bought the M&P 2.0 10mm 4.6" gun this spring with the rebate, I was just as accurate with 10mm full house loads as I was with my M&P 40 1.0 with 180g 1000 fps loads, only the aggressive grip texture was noticeably rougher on my hands. I am now just as accurate with both 10mm 180g 1300 fps as I am with my pet 180g 1000 fps 40 S&W loads. I simply notice a little more recoil similar to the difference between 9mm and 40 S&W loads. I can also shoot 40 S&W through the M&P 10 with no problems.
Is the $499 M&P 10 (after rebate) worth it? It is for me. Will I put a Red Dot on it? Probably not. I have them on my P320 40 S&W, PDP and Mk IV 22/45 and love them but if there is any chance I would want a gun for practical purposes and not just paper punching on the range, I'd probably stick with iron sights.
I just got the 2.0 9mm 4" Optics Ready and a Holosun 507C X2 ACSS Vulcan. I've read mix comments on the OEM plastic plates, precision c&h, dpp titanium (no comments on their aluminum) and calculated kinetics. I also read issues with Holosun screws as well. Any feedback on the plate options would be great. Don't want the red dot falling off due to recoil. I also ordered an OpticGard cover (that can stay on when shooting; it's like a cellphone protector for the red dot; not sure it would fit with calculated kinetics lip that is suppose to reduce build up deposits on the lens)
