M&P shortage?

[Rangel]

From what I've seen, Bud's is out of a lot of M&Ps in general and aside from Buds, I have had a harder time finding M&P 45s, especially all around lately.--They're out there and in stock in some places, like at TGSCOM--IF but only if you don't mind spending north of $700....


But not so with other M&P's, from what I see. Today most sizes are still (for now anyway) available at reasonable pricess--say, $439 and above.

Regarding the Army dumping the M9 and going with S&W, I'd LOVE to see that, but FN will along with the Springfields for starters, be considered when the time comes:

FNP FNX 9x19 & .40 S&W: New US Army Choice?? [Archive] - Glock.pro

Since FN (FNH USA) bought out Browning and since they (among other companies) started building M16's for the US Army, both back in the late 1980's, their presence and influence in the USA has become increasingly evident. Heck--they were building machine guns for us way back during World War ONE and have been more or less building weapons for us (and our enemies, including the NAZIs), for a long, long time. FNH USA - About Us

That said, to go with FN probably wouldn't create the type of backlash that went on for a while over our forces using Berretas, including the allegations that keeping US military bases in Italy was a motivating factor for us doing so. Both Berreta and FNH have been making guns in Italy and Belgium (FNs home base) since before the mid 1500's. Maybe Christopher Columbus had one, for all we know.

Unless we were going to the 5.7 X 28 round that FN pioneered, I think IF the Army were to change standard issue sidearm, S&W would still have the advantage, IF they could prove capable of producing sufficient supply. Then again, as long as you have a great gun of sound design, more than one company can be tooled up to make it. There are still some serviceable 1911's that were made for the US Army by the Singer Sewing Machine company, to name but one supplier!

Some might remember the stink created when our govt. was ready to grant 100's of millions of $$$ in aviation contracts to Europe when our own nation's aerospace industry was hurting. Hopefully that will be remembered.

I think the Army's contract with Berreta runs through at least 2014, but then again, our govt makes and breaks contracts and laws all the time, so stranger things have happened than an early break with Berreta.

Most of the Army guys I know toting those Berretas, fixed sights and all, would like something different, although it is still a fine weapon, most of will grudgingly admit.

 

[WR Moore]

Since FN (FNH USA) bought out Browning ..... Heck--they were building machine guns for us way back during World War ONE
.

Since the Kaisers troops occupied the areas of the FN factories, I have to doubt this.

The various 1917-1919 Browning guns were made by a variety of US plants under license. New England Westinghouse was one of the makers.

 

[Rangel]

Re:

>>Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangel
Since FN (FNH USA) bought out Browning ..... Heck--they were building machine guns for us way back during World War ONE

From WR Moore:

>>Since the Kaisers troops occupied the areas of the FN factories, I have to doubt this.<<

This source (below) is from FN, (I didn't have hours to cite, copy and paste other sources to substantiate, but they're out there--google them and so forth, if you want to.

You may feel they (FN/H) have an inherent bias and/or are lying, 'stetching the truth' or whatever. But I have read and heard much of this from other sources as well. Playing both sides in war, not just in the weapons industry, but in many industries as well, including financial sectors (banks) and manufacturing operations, raw minerals procurers, etc. all this has been going on for centuries.

In war, it's never been ususual for concerns from differering (including warring) nations to play 'both sides'--at least for as long as a company or individual/s can do it before the heat gets too hot. It's happened in Iraq and Afganistan---the international arms market has some very shady people and sadly, some have been Americans.

American and European area commercial interests, to name two, have a history of doing this. Many years back, my father was assigned by his employer, General Motor's legal department, to investigate and document--it's a published book, in fact, about the extent of General Motors activities and involvement in especially the early years of WWII, and with their interest in Adam Opel in particular in, to name just one arm of the company. GM didn't come out looking TOO bad, as Hitler had indeed 'appropriated' plants, but that wasn't the case in it's totality--GM still ended up looking bad to some extent. It was complicated.

At least they weren't anything like Ford's then president Henry Ford, who for years was an openly ardent admirer of Hitler and even kept a picture of Hitler on his office desk. Ford was a man who was also openly anti Jewish, and he, as well the company that bears his name, have their own ghosts obviously.

From FNH (website included in my initial post a couple posts up)

>>The various 1917-1919 Browning guns were made by a variety of US plants under license. New England Westinghouse was one of the makers.<<

1907 – FN begins official use of the Browning name in conjunction with their firearms.

1914 – FN produces the one millionth Browning Automatic Pistol.

1914 - FN arms factory is seized and occupied by the invading Germans for use as a hospital and vehicle repair facility.

1917 – The .30 caliber Model 1917 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) and .30 caliber Browning Model 1917 Machine Gun are adopted by the U.S. military. Both designs will remain in active U.S. military service for more than a half century..

1918 – John M. Browning develops the .50 caliber Browning Heavy Machine Gun at the request of U.S. General John J. “Black Jack” Pershing. Browning personally test-fires the prototype on 12 September. The .50 caliber Browning design remains in active U.S. military service today.

1919 – FN resumes small arms manufacture and design collaboration with John. M. Browning, who brings designs for his BAR, .30 and .50 caliber machine guns for FN to produce for the world military market.

1923 – John. M. Browning begins working with FN on the first prototypes of what would become the legendary Hi Power Automatic Pistol.

1926 – FN contracts to built the BAR for Polish military. John M. Browning suffers a fatal heart attack at the FN factory in Liege. His son Val Browning and assistant Dieudonne Saive continue developing small arms designs for FN.

1932 – FN adapts Browning machine gun designs for aircraft use.

1935 – FN introduces the Model 1935 Browning Hi Power, the world’s first successful high-capacity 9mm handgun. The pistol is quickly adopted by several Allied military forces. Over time it also becomes popular with law enforcement and special operations units and remains in production today.

1939 – FN celebrates its 50th anniversary.

1940- FN arms factory is again seized, occupied and integrated into the German war production effort. FN engineers including Dieudonne Saive flee to England, taking weapon blueprints with them to prevent their capture by the Germans.

1942-1945 – John M. Browning-designed automatic rifles, pistols and machine guns made by FN and many other manufacturers are critical to the war effort and are widely used by Allied ground, air and naval forces in every theater of the conflict.

1944 – FN factory stripped of much of its machinery by retreating Germans and then heavily damaged by their V1 buzz bombs and V2 rockets. Now liberated from German occupation, FN quickly assists the Allied war effort by building fuel cans and steel mud grips for tanks and tracked military vehicles.

1945 – FN refurbishes more than two million U.S. military small arms from the European Theater of Operations prior to their return to Allied war reserves.

1949 – FN introduces Model 1949 SAFN Semi-Automatic Infantry Rifle, and begins production of jet engines for military fighter aircraft.

1953 – FN assists in development of the 7.62x51mm cartridge and introduces the legendary FAL Light Automatic Rifle. Both are soon adopted by NATO<<


FN and Beretta have brick and mortar (factories) and other facilities in the USA building weapons that are used by (among others, the US military.

Especially since the US govt was forced to open contract availability to much smaller companies in the current mideast conflicts, there have been a number of incidents where Americans sold our own military ammunition that by US law, was illegal to buy and sell--- from China and former communist nations, that was total ****--corroded, very unreliable, sent in boxes that had been in storage for decades and were falling apart before they even got to our troops and comprimising their safety.

I'd like to think that such behavior could fall under treason stautes, but that's very unusual with the political/economic manner under which these companies operate. Now if a soldier plays both sides for profit and puts his unit in harms way, HE can face the death penalty, however...

 

[Beat Trash]

I don't see the Army dumping the M9 anytime soon. Especially when they just bought new ones recently.

As to the M&P shortage, it is factual that S&W has won several large contracts in Europe recently, in addition to various US agencies switching over.

It's taking a while to fill these existing contracts. This is in addition to the demand from the civilian market.

 

[Rangel]

It looks like Beretta's going to making more new M9 pistols through 2014 and being paid to service existing ones through 2015, but I do not know if it is a totally exclusive contract that excludes side arms from other manufacturers from being issued to our military.

 

[LBAR15]

I had a very hard time finding an M&P Pro or 9L from any of my local dealers. I ended up breaking down about 6 months ago and picking one up new off Gunbroker. The price was very fair, the seller was great and MY LGS did the transfer cheap for me so it all worked out OK. My LGS just called me last week and told me they finally got one 9L in.

 

[A2 Stippling]

I don't like carrying nor shooting the Beretta 9mm here in good old Army land. However, there is no talk of changing our sidearms anytime soon...just clerk talk.

I too am having a VERY difficult time finding a M&P Pro 9mm either online or via my local gun stores. Now that I have taken a full month to fire all alternatives...and wanted to pull the money trigger...my chosen gun taint available! Ugh!

 

[Kapture1]

I went to Cabelas in MI to get a 40 compact on Sunday, they didn't have any 9, 40, or 45 compacts in stock. I went with the m&p 45 instead.

I guess the compact will have to wait...

 

[Houdini1953]

I had to call all over Southern California to find one, and just drove an hour and 45 min each way to get mine (started 10 day wait) today. Everyone else was out with no idea when they would get more. The fired cartridge was dated 06-15-11 and it was the last one they had...So they must have got some and sold them all really fast.

Why a ten day wait? I thought the Brady Bill with an instant check was a federal law and could not be superseded by the States ...oh yeah you live in California where they make it up as they go along! I would challenge that waiting period and say hey guy I just passed the background check so fill out the paperwork and give me my gun, or go to court with a half assed attorney and get the law changed to what it should be!

 

[delta1679]

I went to Cabelas in MI to get a 40 compact on Sunday, they didn't have any 9, 40, or 45 compacts in stock. I went with the m&p 45 instead.

I guess the compact will have to wait...

I've had mixed results with that Cabelas (Dundee, MI). I was there a couple of weeks back and they were out of the pistols I was interested in and the shotguns my friend was shopping for.

On the other hand, I tried three other gun shops in my area and all three had M&P compacts. I'm hoping to pick up the 9c in a couple of weeks.

 

[Bmanz]

My wallet isn't fond of all the firearm forums; I just grabbed an M&P 45 full size w/night sights for $629 when I heard (and read) how limited the M&P supply seemed to be. This will be my fun gun to beat-about on the range or farm and cycle through some 45 ACP I've been over-stockpiling.
The 45 compact was what interested me but it wasn't as "compact" as I expected and it was the same price as the full size but had no night sights. The next buy is a 40c when I can find one. I really love the M&P line.

 

[WR Moore]

1914 - FN arms factory is seized and occupied by the invading Germans for use as a hospital and vehicle repair facility.

1917 – The .30 caliber Model 1917 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) and .30 caliber Browning Model 1917 Machine Gun are adopted by the U.S. military. Both designs will remain in active U.S. military service for more than a half century..

1918 – John M. Browning develops the .50 caliber Browning Heavy Machine Gun at the request of U.S. General John J. “Black Jack” Pershing. Browning personally test-fires the prototype on 12 September. The .50 caliber Browning design remains in active U.S. military service today.

Since, by the first quote above, the FN plant was siezed by the Germans and converted to other uses, they weren't making machine guns for anyone. I do believe that Brownings agreement with FN kept the US as his exclusive territory.

The fact that the US adopted and used Browning designed guns does not mean FN manufactured them for US use. As noted, Westinghouse made 1917s, as did Remington and Colt. J.M. Browning was actively developing product improvements such as the M1918 and M1919. He certainly didn't do that in FN facilities. IIRC, the cal .50 was initially adopted as the M1921, I know I have a manual showing a picture of that particular weapons system.

I don't know that the US might not have had to pay any royalties to FN afterward. They did to Mauser for patent infringement by the 1903. The issue was "making" of the weapons.