M2.0 Really Challenging Glock?

[Arik]

I've never fired one, but they are extremely popular and seem to be huge sellers. Like Glock.

I have owned a LOT of other Rugers, though. There's nothing mediocre about them.

Mediocre
1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate
2. not satisfactory; poor; inferior

Any brand whose reputation includes the phrase "built like a tank" can't also be called "mediocre."

Sorry, people buying them is not what I consider popular. People often buy based simply on price or the fact that a salesman recommend it. I have friends and family who buy and own guns. 99% have bought based on price and 99% never shoot. My dad hasn't shot his gun since before 2010. My uncle bought a Shield in the spring and has yet to even chamber a round. The last time he was at the range was 4 years ago. He couldn't remember what ammo he needed and bought 38spl instead of 380. The time before that he was at the range in the mid 90s. And he's not an old forgetful man. He's 52. My friends have guns they shoot once a year or less. And a lot of people are like that. Most won't shoot 500 rounds in a year. So that kind of popularity....just sales figures.. isn't what I base a good gun on.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Telecaster]

So your justification for calling the SR series mediocre is based on what, exactly? I'm a little lost...

Why would your uncle want .380 for a Shield?

 

[Arik]

So your justification for calling the SR series mediocre is based on what, exactly? I'm a little lost...

Why would your uncle want .380 for a Shield?

Based on lack of any real evidence of long term use and problems if any. This is not a Ruger thing it's any gun in that category I'm just using Ruger SR as an example. Guns like Sig legacy series, HK USP/P2000/P30, S&W 3rd gen, Glock, CZ, Beretta 92 etc... All have long track records of testing and heavy use. Of course there are mistakes and no manufacturer is immune from that but those are the guns I consider when making a purchase. Used or new! HK probably sells less USPs then Ruger does SR but from a reliability standpoint the Ruger is no where in the same league.

He hasn't even taken the Shield out of the box. He's had a 380 Beretta since the mid 90s. Shot about a 100 rounds through it total. It's his home defense gun. Last time he took it out was in the mid 90s and had forgotten what ammo it uses. He remembered the numbers "3" and "8" so he bought 38spl

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Just a little info regarding gun sales..much of the info we get about how many Glocks are sold is at glock forums and by people that grossly over blow everything about Glocks....I've heard guys say glock sells millions of of guns in the US. the truth is in 2016 Glock sales were 252 thousand guns all models....S&W sold 990 thousand handguns all models and Ruger sold 770 thousand handguns all models...the ATF is always 1 year behind listing sales for reasons of not effecting the marketplace.

These numbers are derived from ATF GUN registrations and as we know all gun sales have to be reported through the FEDS. Glock comes in total gun sales 9 th...Ruger comes in no. 1 @ 1million 668 thousand total sales and S&W comes in at no. 2 @
1 million 474 thousand total sales. S&W and Ruger totals are rifles and handguns


This tells me Glock sells no where near the amount of guns they are reputed to sell.. Glock guns are no threat to S&W or Ruger. This doesn't mean Glock isn't a decent gun it's just to put things straight....

I no longer have Glocks...I have S&W, CZ'S, Sigs and a Walther..
I sold many S&W's many years ago when I left collecting for 10 years BIG MISTAKE but whats gone is gone now I'm back again..

If the 4473's are supposed to be kept by the individual FFL and not sent it to the ATF to form a nationwide data base, then how does the ATF know how many Glocks, Rugers and S&W's are sold???????
QUICK-TIN FOIL HAT TIME

 

[Mister X]

So your justification for calling the SR series mediocre is based on what, exactly?

How many military and police here and around the globe does the SR series see? How many well known and respected defensive shooting instructors who can pick any gun they want do you see carrying it? How about SWAT and Spec Op guys? Now contrast that with Glock.

If none of that matters as I imagine some will say, then what does? If someone is looking to buy their first semi-automatic and they want a proven dependable weapon, what other information would they use to narrow their search?

 

[jhnttrpp]

So, if I'm following along correctly here, your sole evaluation of a Glock's performance/durability/viability is that, having no idea of the differences/similarities between the different "plastic" materials, that Glock's is thinner, and therefore inferior.

My titanium camping coffee mug takes umbrage at that comment . . .

Muss, you need to put a little china in your life. With a good grip uh, handle. BTW does that Titanium keep your coffee warm. What capacity is that mug. Is it the compact or full size. I do have a travel mug. It has plastic out side with a stainless liner. Was that the camping or combat model. China, titanium, plastic, I just can't decide. I think I'll go make some coffee. I'll save you a cup Muss.

 

[okiegtrider]

Now we're talkin! Bad, Bad Glocks!

 

[Telecaster]

Based on lack of any real evidence of long term use and problems if any. This is not a Ruger thing it's any gun in that category I'm just using Ruger SR as an example. Guns like Sig legacy series, HK USP/P2000/P30, S&W 3rd gen, Glock, CZ, Beretta 92 etc... All have long track records of testing and heavy use. Of course there are mistakes and no manufacturer is immune from that but those are the guns I consider when making a purchase. Used or new! HK probably sells less USPs then Ruger does SR but from a reliability standpoint the Ruger is no where in the same league.

He hasn't even taken the Shield out of the box. He's had a 380 Beretta since the mid 90s. Shot about a 100 rounds through it total. It's his home defense gun. Last time he took it out was in the mid 90s and had forgotten what ammo it uses. He remembered the numbers "3" and "8" so he bought 38spl

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Still no objective evaluation of the SR series, only that police (who don't actually shoot guns that often) and military pick other brands. That tells me exactly nothing. I'm done here.

Whispers... There is no .380 Shield. But you already know that. Right?

 

[Arik]

Still no objective evaluation of the SR series, only that police (who don't actually shoot guns that often) and military pick other brands. That tells me exactly nothing. I'm done here.

Whispers... There is no .380 Shield. But you already know that. Right?

So you base your purchase on what? I base on military testing. Yes militaries pick other brands after testing. Some win, some fail and some are not even presented. HK tells us that based on their one testing along with military tests that the P30 can go roughly 90k rounds before needing a rebuild. HK didn't win the contest but there is good evidence of after years of testing their guns are solid and reliable. Glock also didn't win the military contract but they only lost out in price. The submitted Glocks and Sigs were equally matched however, Sig sold their guns at cost, no profit. Thus it was cheaper. Once again there is evidence of tests and there is data. Just because the military chose Sig didn't make the Glock any worse in function.

Only one can win but that doesn't mean all the rest failed in reliability


Once again....the Shield HAS NOT COME OUT OF THE BOX. As in UNFIRED, NEVER TOUCHED. Go re read. I said the Shield was bought this past spring/summer time. That would be about 7 months ago in 2017 The last time at the range was FOUR years ago! That's. F O U R (4) YEARS. Which would make it about 2014. That was when he bought the 38spl for his BERETTA 380....one more time. F O U R. Y E A R S. A G O (4 YEARS, 1460 days ago)

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Telecaster]

Military testing - not all manufacturers choose to go through all the BS that requires. What about the losers, like Glock? Are they mediocre by definition because they failed to be chosen? Your "proof" of quality is not logical. Shall we discuss the F-35 fighter? Just because a product is not tested by the military, that does not prove it's inadequate. This is really simple stuff. Basic rational logic and clear thinking. There's more to life than official government testing and approval.

If all you ever buy are products approved in government contracts, you're really missing out on a lot of good products.

I still don't understand the significance of your Shield comments. Why .380 ammo? Wait, I think I finally made sense of your rambling rant about Shields and Berettas. Not everyone is your uncle.

 

[Mister X]

So, what criteria do you use to evaluate a firearm?

 

[Arik]

Military testing - not all manufacturers choose to go through all the BS that requires. What about the losers, like Glock? Are they mediocre by definition because they failed to be chosen? Your "proof" of quality is not logical. Shall we discuss the F-35 fighter? Just because a product is not tested by the military, that does not prove it's inadequate. This is really simple stuff. Basic rational logic and clear thinking. There's more to life than official government testing and approval.

If all you ever buy are products approved in government contracts, you're really missing out on a lot of good products.

I still don't understand the significance of your Shield comments. Why .380 ammo? Wait, I think I finally made sense of your rambling rant about Shields and Berettas. Not everyone is your uncle.

How do you evaluate a firearm? It doesn't have to be a military. Can be lots of people who shoot A LOT and over a long time. I'm fine with lots of students and instructors using them, documenting failures if any. Round counts as well. What's your criteria and evaluation? It's exists so therefore it's good? Would you trust one of those Rohm revolvers? What's your practice schedule like? What are the determining factors?

No not everyone is my uncle. But how many people shoot their guns to failure? How many shoot even thousands of rounds a year? Enough to give a thorough evaluation!?!?!?!

Rambling rant? I haven't made comments about how you type. Only asking how you evaluate. I gave my reasoning. If you'd like I can go below your level of drivel. I have no problem lowering and going below anyone's standard.

 

[FloridaS&W]

What about worldwide? I don't think you'll find too many Ruger's and S&W's in the holsters of military and police around the globe compared with Glock.

Who cares, if I had wanted a "global" gun it was certainly available, but I chose Smith & Wesson, they are an incredible AMERICAN SUCCESS STORY with over a million Shield sales alone.

 

[FloridaS&W]

No hate here. Glock makes as decent a gun as any other medium to low end gun. They're just not the perfect gun their fan boys claim they are.

Right. I don't hate Glocks, at all. I just think they feel like a plastic brick in the hand; I would never choose one over an M&P.

 

[Rastoff]

If the 4473's are supposed to be kept by the individual FFL and not sent it to the ATF form a nationwide data base, then how does the ATF know how many Glocks, Rugers and S&W's are sold???????

Because manufacturers have to report serial numbers to the...wait for it...BATFE. Tada!

They don't know who bought them, but they know how many were made and sold to retailers.

No tin-foil hat necessary.

 

[Flyingfool]

Defacto registration. The ATF doesn’t keep the record. They corce the manufacturer, AND the FFL to keep the records for them. That way technically the ATF is complyimg with the law to not keep the records.

So the feds know who sold the gun to what FFL. They then go to that FFL and comb through their books to find out who that FFL sold it to.

So only a face to face private sale puts a break in the documentarion link of chain.

At least that is my understanding of how it works.

Then the states and/or city that have mandatory registration even catch those who had face to face purchase. Or the gunowner is breakimg state or local law by failing to register.

A vicious web. Good thing we live in a free country!

 

[Mister X]

Who cares, if I had wanted a "global" gun it was certainly available, but I chose Smith & Wesson, they are an incredible AMERICAN SUCCESS STORY with over a million Shield sales alone.

I care. I think most people, no matter where they from, would choose a product from their country of origin if given the choice between two equal items. When so many are opting to go with a foreign made gun tells me not all are equal. I buy Made in the USA when I can, but when it comes to lifesaving tools, I want the best tool for the job no matter where it comes from. The fact a particular gun is in service by so many military and police around the world and maintains a stellar reputation after decades of hard use tells me a lot about the quality of that weapon.

How about just in the United States then...what gun is in the holsters of the majority of police departments? What pistol did the FBI just select? How Spec Ops?, I'm pretty sure they can select whatever they want. How about most of the defensive shooting instructors in the U.S.?

If none of that matters, then what does? What criteria do you use to evaluate a gun? How would an individual with no experience looking to buy their first handgun narrow down their options to make an informed decision so make sure they get a proven reliable weapon?

 

[Rastoff]

So the feds know who sold the gun to what FFL. They then go to that FFL and comb through their books to find out who that FFL sold it to.

This is only ever done if the gun in question was used in a crime. So, the process goes like this:
Police find a gun used in a crime.
They look up the serial number and the manufacturer tells them where it was originally delivered.
Then the police/ATF/FBI/etc. go to that FFL and dig through the 4473s to find out who it was sold to.

Except in places where guns are registered. Then they just look up the serial number in the registry and instantly know who it's registered to.

 

[FloridaS&W]

I care. I think most people, no matter where they from, would choose a product from their country of origin if given the choice between two equal items. When so many are opting to go with a foreign made gun tells me not all are equal.

Equal? You seem to think Glocks are "equal" with or better than the M&P, but I think the M&P is far superior. Like I said, I don't hate Glocks, but the M&P has far better ergonomics, and it's better built. My full-size has over 1,000 rounds through it with zero malfunctions, as in 100% perfect reliability. The Shield 45 is relatively new and has a few things to iron out with the mags, but as for Shields, they're already leading the pack for personal carry guns, for one simple reason: owners love them, often going back to buy another, and another.

Look, Police and other agencies don't make my decisions. You realize gov-think isn't always the gold standard for best quality, right? Do you really think Dodge Chargers and Chevy Tahoes are the best vehicles because cops and other gov agents use them? I don't care if every cop on the planet uses a Glock (they don't by the way) – that just means Glock is relying heavily on those channels for contract sales, which doesn't always work out real well for the future of a gun business. Just because Peter Strzok has a Glock, that's still no reason to buy something that feels like a plastic brick in MY hand. Well, maybe it is for you, but I don't care.

Last time I checked, Block didn't even offer buyers the choice of a safety, so it's obvious the manufacturer is tone deaf to what consumers want; typical European mindset—they're out of touch with little or no innovation, and probably in a rut they will never climb out of. It sounds like you love them and I think that's cool, but to me they are dinosaurs, and that's probably why millions of gun owners have moved past the Glock age.

Hey listen, no offense—if you think it's the best weapon for you, then stick with 'em. Heck, I think AK-47's are kinda cool too, I just don't go around pretending they're the best gun for everybody.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Because manufacturers have to report serial numbers to the...wait for it...BATFE. Tada!

They don't know who bought them, but they know how many were made and sold to retailers.

No tin-foil hat necessary.

Roger that.
Stand down men. Return tin foil hats to armory and await further instructions.
That is all.