Model 19

Mr_Flintstone

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Hi all. I'm new here, but looking around, I see some familiar names. I was recently given a Model 19 that was identified on another forum as a 19-3 Combat Magnum made in 1975. Although the other forums provide a lot of info, I figured this would be the best place to get model-specific information.

First, I would like to ask about ammo. I've read here and other places not to use .357 magnum ammo that is less than 140 grains. I can live with that. Is there anything else important to know about ammo for this gun? Is most commercial 158 gr .357 typically OK? And .38 special. Is all .38 special OK to use? Some companies make .38 +P that nearly rivals some .357 magnum.

Second, I'd like to ask about cleaning the medallions on the grips. Mine are a brass color with bits of green around the edges. I tried some Mothers Mag and Aluminum polish which helped a lot. Is there something better?
 
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First, I would like to ask about ammo. I've read here and other places not to use .357 magnum ammo that is less than 140 grains. I can live with that. Is there anything else important to know about ammo for this gun? Is most commercial 158 gr .357 typically OK? And .38 special. Is all .38 special OK to use? Some companies make .38 +P that nearly rivals some .357 magnum.

There is much discussion about 125 grain .357 causing undue wear and tear and cracking K frame forcing cones. 125 grain moves along quite fast. Enough smoke for me to believe that there is fire there, at least a little. That said, a lot of folks shoot buckets of .357 through K frames with no problems. Most will say that 158 grain is optimal. That's what I shoot. Yes, any old .38 or .38+p should be fine.

Second, I'd like to ask about cleaning the medallions on the grips. Mine are a brass color with bits of green around the edges. I tried some Mothers Mag and Aluminum polish which helped a lot. Is there something better?

Flitz on a Q-Tip works. That said, I sort of like the green oxidation. adds character.
 
Welcome to the FORUM, Fred! (couldn't help that) Someone gave you a 19! That is a plus in itself. Is it a 4", or 6"? Blue or nickel? Anyway, we all like to see pictures. Take it out to the range for a workout. Bob
 
Welcome Fred. I have a Model 19 6 inch that I bought in 1974. I have shot over 10,000 rounds out of it. I've fired hot .357's and mild .38 Specials without any problems what so ever. It has been back to the factory twice, once for an action job and the second time they installed a target hammer and target trigger.
 
I recognize your name also and welcome to this forum. You have one of the best revolvers and with care it will last for generations to come. Be aware that this forum has many "enablers" who will have you buying more S&W revolvers than you ever envisioned.:)
 
Thanks for the info guys. I was a little concerned about the .38 spl because of the "carbon rings". I thought that mine had these rings when I got it, but after much reading and close inspection, I think they are the places where the chambers start to taper off toward the ends. Does this model have tapered chambers?

Anyway, I have only shot a few .357 158 gr sp, .38 spl 130 gr fmj, and .38 spl 158 gr LRN. It seems that I shoot the 130 gr .38 spl the best, although there wasn't much difference in group size among the three. I was surprised that the .357 wasn't all that difficult to shoot accurately, and the .38 was a downright pleasure to shoot.

This is the only picture I have. Sorry for the poor quality. I took it with my phone.
 

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I still hate you Fred, yes it is me from the other forum. If you have a Cabela's near-by they put the PMC 158 gr JSP mag ammo on sale for around $20 to $22 a box of 50 every now and then. I stock up on it when it is on sale. It has been very accurate in my 19-3 and my GP100. I will be trying out the 158 gr LRN 38 loads on Friday and will let you know how they workout. I picked them up for $16 a box.
 
I still hate you Fred, yes it is me from the other forum. If you have a Cabela's near-by they put the PMC 158 gr JSP mag ammo on sale for around $20 to $22 a box of 50 every now and then. I stock up on it when it is on sale. It has been very accurate in my 19-3 and my GP100. I will be trying out the 158 gr LRN 38 loads on Friday and will let you know how they workout. I picked them up for $16 a box.

Don't hate me Steve. I'm just a kind gentle person who helps out old ladies. I can't help it if they want to repay me. If it makes you feel any better, her water pipes burst Sunday morning, and I had to spend the whole day crawling around doing doing plumbing work, and then cleaning her carpets.
 
Good, now you are starting to earn that work of art. I love mine. To me it is one of the most finally balanced revolvers ever made. It just point beautifully and the workmanship on the old Smiths is just awesome.
 
I posted on the alleged issue with 125 gr bullets in much more detail, but here's the cliff notes version:

1) The internet myth is that the shorter bullet lets gas around it that preheats the forcing cone and lets the bullet damage it. That fails basic thermodynamics given the very short time interval involved and the inability to transfer any significant heat in that time.

2) The issue is that:

a) lighter bullets have larger powder charges;

b) slow burning (for a handgun) colloidal ball powders are popular in the .357 Magnum;

c) Colloidal ball powders only partially burn in the case with the result that the abrasive un-burnt and partially burnt powder flows through the forcing cone along with hot plasma from what powder has burned.

d) This causes increased forcing cone erosion compared to a medium or medium fast burning (for a handgun) powder like Bullseye, Unique, BE-86, Universal Clays or one of the "Dot" powders.

e) Throat erosion creates small v shaped cuts in the forcing cone, and these cuts are stress risers. In the Model 19, the bottom of the forcing cone is milled away to create clearance for the crane. This results in a thin spot in the forcing cone at the 6 o'clock position and this combined with the stress riser created by forcing cone erosion will lead to formation of a crack in this area. In essence, the bottom of one of these v shaped cuts, just extends as a crack all the way to the outside of the barrel.

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Given that a 125 gr bullet uses around 21 grains of a colloidal ball powder like Win 296, compared to around 16 grains of the same powder for a 158 gr bullet, there's about 25% more powder flowing through the forcing cone. At best it represents a linear increase in forcing cone erosion. It's probably non linear as the increased charge and increased plasma probably creates a bit more than 25% of the forcing cone erosion.


In other words, the problem isn't the bullet, it's the larger powder charge, and more correctly the powder itself.

In if you never used anything other than a 158 gr bullet, those 16 grain charges over 25% more rounds will create just as much erosion.

The saving grace is that most people will never put enough .357 Magnum ammo through a Model 19, (or Model 13, Model 66, or one of the Model 10-6 revolvers in .357 Mag) to have an issue - but all the K frame .357 Magnum S&Ws are more at risk once forcing cone erosion is present.

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A related internet myth is that these slow powders that produce maximum velocity in a 6" or 8" barrel also produce more velocity in a 2 1/2 or 3" barrel. I've been chronographing loads for over 25 years and I've never observed that to be the case.

Those loads do however produce substantially more recoil, given that all the mass of the powder is expelled from the end of the barrel at about 3 times the velocity of the bullet. This means that a 20 gr load of 296 has 12 more grains of mass than an 8 grains of Unique, and will produce recoil equal to about 35 more grains of bullet weight when the velocities are the same.

This means that even though I can get about 1243 fps with a 125 gr bullet with 8.5 gr Unique in a 3" barrel, I get only 1132 fps with 19.5 grains of Win 296 (with both loads operating at about the same pressure and same percentage under maximum) but the Win 296 loads generates more recoil - 6.79 ft pounds compared to 5.05 ft pounds. That's 111 fps less velocity, but 34% more recoil with Win 296.

The problem of course is that if you have a shooter shoot both loads he'll swear up and down on a stack of bibles that the 296 load is faster, because it has much more recoil. If you show him the actual chronograph data he won't believe you.

So, slow burning powders are popular in .357 Magnum, even when it's actually costing velocity in a short barrel, and adding throat erosion for no useful purpose.
 
Thanks for the info guys. I was a little concerned about the .38 spl because of the "carbon rings".

There is much noise made about carbon rings when .38 Special is fired in a .357 Mag chamber.

Some folks go so far as to use .357 Mag cases for their light, .38 Special class loads to avoid the dreaded carbon ring.

The fact is that provided you clean the chambers with a bronze brush, some powder solvent and some patches, any carbon ring that has developed is easily removed.

Now... if you always shoot .38s and never clean the chamber, eventually you'll get a ring significant enough to prevent a .357 round from chambering, but that your fault for not cleaning it.

If I see chamber ring in a .357 it tells me volumes about the over all poor level of care the revolver has received and I'll pass on it for that reason, not because of the carbon ring itself (since it can still be removed).

There is an argument for creating light target loads in a .357 Mag, but that has more to do with eliminating the 1/8" of bullet jump from the case mouth to the throat. It makes a difference in some revolvers and in some revolvers it does not. If your Model 19 already shoots .38s as well as a Model 14 or Model 15, then it's just not an issue and you're better off using the much cheaper .38 Special brass.
 
Anyway, I have only shot a few .357 158 gr sp, .38 spl 130 gr fmj, and .38 spl 158 gr LRN. It seems that I shoot the 130 gr .38 spl the best, although there wasn't much difference in group size among the three. I was surprised that the .357 wasn't all that difficult to shoot accurately, and the .38 was a downright pleasure to shoot.

.357 Magnum isn't bad at all in a K frame where the pistol is in the 36 oz range. .357 Mag gets most of its fierce recoil reputation from:

- small Magna stocks (an unfortunate choice of name, I think), where the stocks are not only small, but allow the middle finger to get rapped by the trigger guard; and

- the J-Magnum frame .357 Magnum revolvers where it can be painful to shoot, particularly with small stocks and in particular boot grips.
 
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