Model 25-2 accuracy?

[mstuhr]

Measure

Hi DC,
I measure the widest part best I can with a caliper. I keep it as square as I can and expect I'm close to correct. You can see how I do it in the pictures.
I don't know that I am driving any of them hard enough to lead. I shot some of the 155s w/ 6.0 231 but they are a good hard cast bullet and I would guess that load around 950-1000 fps.
I looked it over pretty good today because of the backwards bullets. I was half expecting them to melt or act funny. After 40 rounds of various loads I'd have to call the leading minor if any.
Are you talking barrel leading? The throats are more messy than the barrel but nothing to worry about. They do show more than the barrel which shows little or nothing. There is nothing in either that wont easily brush out.
Thanks
Mike

 

[Ron H.]

I have a friend who has been shooting for at least 35 years, has at least 40 pistols who was telling me his 25-2 is very pickey about the ammo that goes through it. I was looking into finding one, but although he liked his, he didn't care for it that much. He said the only ammo it liked was a lower grain wadcutter, shooting typical ball it was terrible. Having seen him shoot consistant 2.5 inch groups at 50 yards, it had me wondering. From what I have been reading on these and other forums, the 25-2 was a great gun and very accurate too, but I haven't seen much mentioned about the ammo used.

What has been your experience?

Sir, I've had only one 25-2, so I wouldn't generalize too much from that, but accuracy was not that particular gun's long suit. It shot "just OK" with factory hardball and poorly with cast-bullet handloads that grouped well in my 1911.

I've had much better accuracy from other Smiths of that same era chambered in .22, .38, .357, or .44.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[boatbum101]

I've had 2 of them & neither would shoot to my expectations . In retrospect maybe I should of tried more things .
Used to be a 2700 shooter named Marty " Babe " Magnan . He only shot S&W revolvers . He made his own grips , cast his own bullets etc . He used to shoot 2600+ regularly . He wore out a Ransom rest testing loads in his 25 . He claimed that anything softer than Linotype would not work . He used an H&G 78 mold , Linotype & would seat bullets deep enough to crimp on the front driving band . Liked Rem 45AR brass , Fed primers. Originally used Dupont 5066 ( no longer made ) , then Win 452AA ( long gone ) , then Scott 453 ( another no longer made ) . He said he got good results with 4.6 W231 . Last I knew he'd changed to 4.6 Green Dot for 50yds & 4.3 Green Dot for 25yds . He would adjust charge weight with each powder lot until he got 825 to 850 fps . Never would tell what he sized to . H&G 78 mold usually drops at 215gr with # 2 alloy & around 204gr with straight Linotype . He also modified a mold to drop @ 175gr ( Linotype ) for 25yd timed / rapid fire as recovery time was less with lighter slugs . Pretty sure this was done by reducing thickness of bullets base . Any way a little history & it sure worked for him . Might be worth a try .

 

[Denny Crane]

Wow! Either "Babe" is now known as "boatbum101" or boatbum has a memory like an old dog! I can't remember my own load stats without pencil and paper let alone another guys with that kind of detail!

Mike,

It's hard enough to take accurate throat measurements with the proper tools (example Amazon.com: Starrett S831EZ Small Hole Gauges Set (4 Pieces ): Industrial & Scientific ) and near impossible using the calipers.

Try this. First clean the cylinder really good using a stiff bronze brush and any cleaner such as Hoppes #9. You can even chuck the brush in your drill as long as you only use it on the cylinder. There can be some really hard deposits of carbon/lead.

When satisfied all holes are clean try dropping a .452 lead bullet through the holes. Try a .451. Do they fall through with only gravity? .451 does but the .452 doesn't? Have to push it just a little with a rod?

If the .452 falls through with gravity only then the throats are without doubt oversized.

If you are not seeing leading in the first 1-2" of the bore after shooting .452 lead bullets the odds are your throats are not grossly oversized.

 

[mstuhr]

Howdy

Hi folks,
Thanks Boatbum, looks like interesting data. The two loads I have found best in my 25 are right near the 4.6 231, although one is a soft bullet.
I think I'm done looking and have found what I needed to enjoy the 25-2.
My next trip to the range will be to shoot a ten shot group of the backwards loaded 155 grain bullets. In the event they prove the first five shot group to be a fluke I will post the results. I thank you all for sharing and allowing me to share my findings with you.
Thanks and Merry Christmas!
Mike

 

[brnoczech]

I have a 25-2 that I bought in essentially unfired condition that has cylinder throats in the .457 range. I have settled on two loads. The first is with Mt. Baldy 270 grain 45 SAA, BH of 11, 5.5 grains of Unique. This is approx 840 fps and I have a ten shot group at 25 yards of 1 7/8". The hunting load is the same bullet sold by Montana Bullet works, BH of 15, 5.9 grains of Universal (Clays), for approx. 900 fps. Both bullets sized .453. This groups 10 in 2". These bullets sized .454 do not shoot as well. The bore in my gun measures .425. Bryan Pearce in Handloader has recommended this particular bullet for guns with oversize throats. I have also read recommendations for using soft swaged bullets but haven't tried that yet. These loads are very easy going and fun to shoot. The loads have all been in Remington 45 AR brass with federal primers.

 

[M29since14]

Mike, I was looking at your picture again and I remember ONE time I got a group like that using the old short Keith design bullet (the version I was using was an H&G #502) and some charge or other of WW 231. I was so excited I fired another group and it was terrible, so I just attributed that to poor shooting on my part owing to the giddiness of actually having a 1955 print a decent target! I put the gun and loads away and tried it again next week. Results: 4 in a nice group and one flier out a couple inches. Another group - same thing. Another - same thing, maybe with 2 fliers, I can't recall. So I guessed that that one lonely group was just a fluke and I put the gun and shells away, marked myself done with ever trying to get a 1955 to shoot that well again, and haven't bothered either one since then.

I did make up a new front sight for the gun, to correct a POA-POI problem (so I wouldn't have to change out the rear blade and thus destroy the old-style adjusting screw). It still needs 0.010" ground off the top. Just a bit too tall.

I have never seen an S&W revolver that was more of a pain in the neck than a 1955, but I am told the early production versions of the Model 647s were right up there with them. I have never owned one of those. 1955s would be great guns if they would just shoot like that picture of yours.

 

[TDC]

Um.... if any of you frustrated guys want to part with your poor shooting 25-2's for an appropriate price I'm in the market... If you can't find a useful loading formula to make them shoot they are of little value to some of you...

Please e-mail or PM a description and any factory or other accessories included, as well as your best price...

Thanks!

 

[Hamden]

Wow! Either "Babe" is now known as "boatbum101" or boatbum has a memory like an old dog! I can't remember my own load stats without pencil and paper let alone another guys with that kind of detail!

Mike,

It's hard enough to take accurate throat measurements with the proper tools (example Amazon.com: Starrett S831EZ Small Hole Gauges Set (4 Pieces ): Industrial & Scientific ) and near impossible using the calipers.

Try this. First clean the cylinder really good using a stiff bronze brush and any cleaner such as Hoppes #9. You can even chuck the brush in your drill as long as you only use it on the cylinder. There can be some really hard deposits of carbon/lead.

When satisfied all holes are clean try dropping a .452 lead bullet through the holes. Try a .451. Do they fall through with only gravity? .451 does but the .452 doesn't? Have to push it just a little with a rod?

If the .452 falls through with gravity only then the throats are without doubt oversized.

If you are not seeing leading in the first 1-2" of the bore after shooting .452 lead bullets the odds are your throats are not grossly oversized.

Fatten a swaged bullet some with a few taps on the nose with a hammer. Slug the throats as usual.

 

[mstuhr]

Fluke alert

Howdy,
Well,I'd like to report that the 155 grain load held up over ten shots.
I got out this morning and it is OK. Just OK.
Seven of the ten looked like the five shot group posted earlier, but three opened it up to near 2 3/4" inch. I felt like I was shooting better than that.
Also, I had a little extra ammo with me and shot five at 50 from a rest and was unable to hold the black on a fifty yard bullseye target with them. Heck, I can hold in the black at fifty one handed standing with a good load and gun.
They don't hold up at fifty and are just OK at 25.
I think the swaged bullet load is a better load as it is consistent 1 3/4"- 2" load at 25.
Lesson learned, I should not let five rounds get my hopes up.
I might bump em' up a little and and see what happens.
Thanks and sorry, I really wanted these to work.
Mike

 

[PT-Partners]

On the 25-2 as a novice here, is there an advantage of the 45 acp over the 45 auto rim other than availability of brass. I have a 625 of 1989 or whatever that was in 4 inch, I shoot some but came across a 4 inch 25-2 that has super glue on it when I put it in my hands. It just feels good.

 

[M29since14]

On the 25-2 as a novice here, is there an advantage of the 45 acp over the 45 auto rim other than availability of brass.

I think not, but like everything else to do with 25s/1955s, there is a legion of people who would argue about that.

I always found I did my best shooting with Auto-Rims, or, if the gun headspaces properly (note that properly word) on ACP cases, I avoided the use of full- and half-moon clips. Accuracy always seems to suffer when the clips are introduced.

I'd prefer to do all of my shooting with Auto-Rim brass, but the stuff is expensive.

 

[buckshotshorty]

I have a 25-2 and never shot anything but a 200 gr. cast wadcutter, powered by 4.0 gr. Bullseye. In a Ransom rest, the gun shot one ragged 5 shot hole @ 50 Ft. consistently. I always used Auto Rim cases for competition. At that time I was competing in bullseye and few guys from my club purchased Model 25s after they saw what mine could do.

I had the wadcutter mold made up by a company in Texas.

 

[ghitch75]

i today tried some AR loads of mine....200gr SWC 6.5gr unique...was just wackin' steel they seem to shoot better the ACP and moons with the same load....i need to put them on paper to really know for sure....anyway i like shootin' the 625 and 25-2 with AR'S...

 

[OIF2]

I think not, but like everything else to do with 25s/1955s, there is a legion of people who would argue about that.

I always found I did my best shooting with Auto-Rims, or, if the gun headspaces properly (note that properly word) on ACP cases, I avoided the use of full- and half-moon clips. Accuracy always seems to suffer when the clips are introduced.

I'd prefer to do all of my shooting with Auto-Rim brass, but the stuff is expensive.

I never heard of that; thanks for the tip. I'll try mine without the clips when I get back to work.
Bob

 

[H Richard]

Only problem with using ACP brass without moon clips is the extraction. Keep a pencil handy to poke out any stubborn cases, but they usually can be lifted out with the fingernails. The advantage of the moon clips is the rapid reloading for various types of action shooting, I have heard some say you can load the AR cases up a lot hotter, but the case strength is the same.

 

[z4lunch]

AR

I too only use auto rim brass in my 25-2. I have had good luck with a 30's era Geo. Hensley mold #68 200 grain semi wadcutter. The group in the pic was fired at 25yds rested, Measures an inch. My 25-2 is one of my favorite go to the range pistols. I have been playing with Win 452AA, because I have so much of it. It was a powder used by John Taffin in the 44spl.
Steve

 

[z4lunch]

Here is a close of the Hensley boolit

 

[H Richard]

z4lunch, where did you get the. 452AA? It was my favorite powder and I also used the H&G68 200 gr bullet. 452AA was discontinued back in the late 80's, and sorely missed. Win Super Target is supposed to be close, and I use 5.3 gr and it is accurate, but still not like the old 452AA. I hate to think that it's the 20 yrs of additional age that that make my groups open up.

 

[Doug M.]

Mr. Richard, when I was 30 I did not think aging would make a difference. I am now 22 years smarter, and I have some bad news for you. :-0

On a more serious note: Given the problems known with some cylinders for the 25s, could one just get a new cylinder, or even re-chamber a used one, and solve that? This was one of the reasons I have made plans and taken steps to implement them for a 45ACP conversion.

 

[z4lunch]

Winchester 452AA

z4lunch, where did you get the. 452AA? It was my favorite powder and I also used the H&G68 200 gr bullet. 452AA was discontinued back in the late 80's, and sorely missed. Win Super Target is supposed to be close, and I use 5.3 gr and it is accurate, but still not like the old 452AA. I hate to think that it's the 20 yrs of additional age that that make my groups open up.

I was very lucky to find a guy on the castboolit site that lived 3 hrs to the north and had some 452AA he would part with. He set me up with a 10lb keg that's almost full. I would guess its from the 80's
Steve

 

[M29since14]

For 25-yd indoor shooting I used to use the #68 bullet and 4.0 grains of 452AA. I don't recall the velocity but I do remember the extreme spread was so small for a 5-round string it was usually in the single digits - 5 or 7 FPS. It was boringly accurate in any decent 1911, and usually would function any gun that was reliable with ball just by changing to a 13- or 14-pound recoil spring. Super Target never did do the same things for me, but still, it is very good - maybe the best powder available for light .45 loads, from what I can tell.