Trying to remember, but to no avail....what model variation of the model 25 in 45 Colt did the large throat get fixed, so that it was standard and consistent? Thinking around the -5, but not sure. Thanks in advance.
Todd
Todd
model 25 colt throat??
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I believe it was 1988 when the 625 and 25-7 were introduced. That said, I think the concern with oversized chambers is not warranted. All my 25s shot better than I could.
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I've owned a 25-5 for years and have taken it to the range often over the years,firing all sorts of cast and jacketed rounds. It would group shots tight at 50 feet, just as tight as any other revolver I owned. Then I read they had "big" throats and would not hit the broad side of a barn. Hmm. I guess my revolver missed that memo. (yes it has "bad".458 throats) I have an old Colt SAA made in 1887 and it has "large" throats and is a tight shooter as well...so I'm not sure what all the fuss about throat size actually is.
By reading several posts in the past, I believe it was corrected when serial numbers started with 3 alpha characters and the elimination of the pinned barrel (-5). There could be some corrected cylinders with pinned barrels as transitional guns. Hold tight, more knowledgeable members will respond.
If you want to be sure of correct throat get a 25-7 or get a .452 bullet and take it with you when you examine a 25-5. I you have to push it through your good, if it drops through mostly likely its .454 or larger. If I come across a big throat gun and the price is right I replace the cylinder with a model 29 cylinder reamed to 45 colt. You can even end up with a pinned and recessed one if you work at it. Here is a 8 3/8" barrelled big throat pinned 25-5 made into a 5" pinned and recessed 45 colt using a recessed 29 cylinder reamed to 45 colt with .452 throats.
My next one is going to use a 5 screw frame. A pinned and recessed long cylinder 5 screw 45 colt.
Why? Because I can
My next one is going to use a 5 screw frame. A pinned and recessed long cylinder 5 screw 45 colt.
Why? Because I can
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cowboy4evr
Member
If you have read any of John Linebaughs articles , you will see where the over size throat thing is totally " over blown " . He says to shoot cast bullets sized .454 . They will " bump " up in size after leaving the cartridge because of the pressure and seal the cylinder throats . I have a 25-5 , 4" and it is literally a " tack driver " shooting cast bullets sized .454 , about " THE " most accurate Smith I have . I bought it cheap from a friend who freaked out when he discovered he had bought a gun with over size throats . It has those " horrible " .457-,458 throats .
I have never understood why anyone would buy / shoot cast bullets for the 45 Colt sized .452 ? As that is supposed to be the " groove " diameter of the barrel and we all know that your cast bullets are supposed to be 1-2 thousandths fatter . Everyone gets all caught up over " cylinder throat size " for proper cast bullet size . I have always thought that the " piece of pipe " in front of the cylinder called a barrel determined cast bullet size , not the cylinder throats . If cylinder throats too small --- ream them out .
I have never understood why anyone would buy / shoot cast bullets for the 45 Colt sized .452 ? As that is supposed to be the " groove " diameter of the barrel and we all know that your cast bullets are supposed to be 1-2 thousandths fatter . Everyone gets all caught up over " cylinder throat size " for proper cast bullet size . I have always thought that the " piece of pipe " in front of the cylinder called a barrel determined cast bullet size , not the cylinder throats . If cylinder throats too small --- ream them out .
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oddshooter
Member
I just got a s&W 25-5 8 3/8" in nichol 98%
serial number N904XXX
the cylinders are consistent at .455
I shot benchrest at 25 yards with 3 recipes.
First was a factory Choice 45 Colt with 180g RNFP .452 and got 1.25" group at 700fps.
Next was 7.5g VV N340 with 255 LFN .454 XLox, .75-" group at 674fps.
Next was 8.25g VV N340 with 300 LFN .454 XLox, .9" group at 690fps.
The factory load with .450 bullets got 1.25" group, that's pretty nice and shows 25-5 accuracy. Comparing that same ammo in my T/C got a .9" group at 900fps. The groups are close in size, but the velocity is 200fps higher.
My .454 sized handloads got .75- " and that is better, but I need more loads and more testing to get the revolver velocity up and test distances at 100 yards.
The seater die in my first attempts to load the .454 swaged the bullet to .450 during seating. Wasted use of a .454
I first tried Lyman "M" die and still got .450. No on a new Lyman stem.
I got an RCBS M type die and they sent no charge a new stem for .454 This created a nice "nest" and did not swage bullets during seating.
Next issue was crimping. As you might be able to tell if you know N340, the velocity was not quite up to expectations.
Two issues are possible. One is that there is not enough case tension after using the RCBS .454 stem. Second is that it is too light a crimp. I remember being hesitant to swage during crimping and may have applied to light a crimp and therefore could not build up enough pressure.
Prescut
I understand S&W now has cylinders from the classic series and will now fit a new cylinder for you on you 25-5.
serial number N904XXX
the cylinders are consistent at .455
I shot benchrest at 25 yards with 3 recipes.
First was a factory Choice 45 Colt with 180g RNFP .452 and got 1.25" group at 700fps.
Next was 7.5g VV N340 with 255 LFN .454 XLox, .75-" group at 674fps.
Next was 8.25g VV N340 with 300 LFN .454 XLox, .9" group at 690fps.
The factory load with .450 bullets got 1.25" group, that's pretty nice and shows 25-5 accuracy. Comparing that same ammo in my T/C got a .9" group at 900fps. The groups are close in size, but the velocity is 200fps higher.
My .454 sized handloads got .75- " and that is better, but I need more loads and more testing to get the revolver velocity up and test distances at 100 yards.
The seater die in my first attempts to load the .454 swaged the bullet to .450 during seating. Wasted use of a .454
I first tried Lyman "M" die and still got .450. No on a new Lyman stem.
I got an RCBS M type die and they sent no charge a new stem for .454 This created a nice "nest" and did not swage bullets during seating.
Next issue was crimping. As you might be able to tell if you know N340, the velocity was not quite up to expectations.
Two issues are possible. One is that there is not enough case tension after using the RCBS .454 stem. Second is that it is too light a crimp. I remember being hesitant to swage during crimping and may have applied to light a crimp and therefore could not build up enough pressure.
Prescut
I understand S&W now has cylinders from the classic series and will now fit a new cylinder for you on you 25-5.
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GCF
Member
Essentially "one ragged hole" groups, w/ 255 - 300 cast? Doesn't sound like you've got much of an issue, at all...
Assuming good (new?) condition brass, I suspect the .454" stem is just about perfect for even a really soft (swaged) bullet, & doubt it's holding your velocity down - especially considering the accuracy results.
If you haven't already, you might bump your charge a bit, or try another powder.
I've had good accuracy results, w/ the slightly faster burning VV N-330. .44spl, .45acp, .45colt (7.8 grains). You might give it a try - if you can find some. That, or (surprisingly) around 7.0 grains of WW231 will provide a bit more pressure - if that's what you're wanting.
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
what I had always heard-was that the pinned 25-5's were the ones with big cylinder throats. I bought one to customize that was just after the pinned model fazed out-and it had correct bores, and made a very nice revolver.
If all you shoot is at 50ft or 25 yards max, then big cylinder throats ought not concern you. If you shoot out to 50, 100 or 200 yards, then it IS important!
When I got my first 25-5 back in the 1980s, you could buy Winchester 255gr swaged hollow base bullets that were 0.456" diameter. Fantastic bullets, if, as noted above, you used the proper expander during the reloading process. Or you could just shoot Winchester factory ammo.
I still have a couple of hundred or so of those "old" bullets, but they get saved for .455 chambered revolvers.
FWIW, all of the three letter S/N prefix 25-5s I've seen and own have the smaller throat size. Either way, they can be made to shoot well.
When I got my first 25-5 back in the 1980s, you could buy Winchester 255gr swaged hollow base bullets that were 0.456" diameter. Fantastic bullets, if, as noted above, you used the proper expander during the reloading process. Or you could just shoot Winchester factory ammo.
I still have a couple of hundred or so of those "old" bullets, but they get saved for .455 chambered revolvers.
FWIW, all of the three letter S/N prefix 25-5s I've seen and own have the smaller throat size. Either way, they can be made to shoot well.
"If all you shoot is at 50ft or 25 yards max, then big cylinder throats ought not concern you. If you shoot out to 50, 100 or 200 yards, then it IS important!"
I guess that explains why "big throats" have never bothered me.
If I'm shooting beyond 50 yards..I'm using a rifle.
I guess that explains why "big throats" have never bothered me.
If I'm shooting beyond 50 yards..I'm using a rifle.
Unless you have tried a revolver @ 100+yards you don't know
what you're missing.. 45 Colt Model P was desigined for long
range shooting. US Army wanted a revolver/ctg that could
shoot thru a horse at a hundred yards and kill an lndian on the
other side... 0ld US Cavalry troopers could take those Hostiles
out at many times a hundred yards.. Sadly there's little chance
to shoot revolvers at long range in competition these days... l
am blessed to be within a couple hours ride of THREE long
range handgun shooting events a month.. There's nothing that
compares in handgun shooting to hitting a metallic silhouette
at 200 Meters/220 Yards... l shot paper with a rifle in BENCH REST
for a lot of years.. l was bored with no ACTION/REACTION from
the target.. Metallic Silhouette Shooting with a revolver supplies
all my fun in shooting handguns
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I shoot at all distances..and yes..I have shot at longer than 50yds with a pistol. I have a Redhawk in .44 with a 2x Tasco scope I have owned for over 30 years. It's a great pistol..but not a rifle.
If I expect to engage targets at rifle ranges..I use a rifle.
If I am going to the race track,I don't bring a Prius...
If I want 50mpg economy,I don't take the F550 for a drive.
Everything has a purpose, and using a 25-5 at 200 yards to score hits is not what I would consider quality time. However, I do "get it", as a challenge is a challenge.
At 200yds.. I'd rather use my AR10T. Much more satisfying..
If I expect to engage targets at rifle ranges..I use a rifle.
If I am going to the race track,I don't bring a Prius...
If I want 50mpg economy,I don't take the F550 for a drive.
Everything has a purpose, and using a 25-5 at 200 yards to score hits is not what I would consider quality time. However, I do "get it", as a challenge is a challenge.
At 200yds.. I'd rather use my AR10T. Much more satisfying..
ydennekb
Member
I have a 25-5 with .452" throats and after doing some reading here, I'd like to try some loads using .454" bullets but can't seem to find any. Is there any problem firing these bullets through the tighter throats?
Soft lead bullets shouldn't be a problem. .453" would be ideal for .452" throats but .454" lead is okay.
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I shoot at all distances..and yes..I have shot at longer than 50yds with a pistol. I have a Redhawk in .44 with a 2x Tasco scope I have owned for over 30 years. It's a great pistol..but not a rifle.
If I expect to engage targets at rifle ranges..I use a rifle.
If I am going to the race track,I don't bring a Prius...
If I want 50mpg economy,I don't take the F550 for a drive.
Everything has a purpose, and using a 25-5 at 200 yards to score hits is not what I would consider quality time. However, I do "get it", as a challenge is a challenge.
At 200yds.. I'd rather use my AR10T. Much more satisfying..
Last deer I shot was with a 20" barreled rifle .223 at 15-20 yards. Seemed a waste of a good handgun shot, but I wanted the meat. Conversely, I've shot deer at 75-80 yards with a revolver. So I consider the long range matches good training! Particularly IHMSA Field Pistol.
And, yes, I've taken out the .45 Colt 625 more than once whilst looking for deer with no rifle. But so far nothing has shown up whilst toting the .45. The .44s have worked, though.
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Went to see Kenny Jarrett last week. Builder of the Worlds Most Accurate Hunting Rifles...
Guess what we talked about. A 1700s bullet mould in round ball,
for his museum, TC Contender in 22Hornet, and 60s Corvettes.
Sorry, but rifles just ain't FUN... l don't hunt anymore...
lf l did, lt would be with a HANDGUN
Guess what we talked about. A 1700s bullet mould in round ball,
for his museum, TC Contender in 22Hornet, and 60s Corvettes.
Sorry, but rifles just ain't FUN... l don't hunt anymore...
lf l did, lt would be with a HANDGUN
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oddshooter
Member
Hornady Bullets 45 Cal (454 Diameter) 255 Grain Lead Flat - MPN: 12458
those are $.19 ea
Ydennekb,
You will gain nothing shooting .454 through a .452 cylinder throat. The bullet must swage itself down to pass thru the throats. So by the time it hits the forcing cone, it is only a .452 bullet. That's probably perfect for a .451 groove diameter. The only way you know the groove diameter is to slug the bore.
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those are $.19 ea
Ydennekb,
You will gain nothing shooting .454 through a .452 cylinder throat. The bullet must swage itself down to pass thru the throats. So by the time it hits the forcing cone, it is only a .452 bullet. That's probably perfect for a .451 groove diameter. The only way you know the groove diameter is to slug the bore.
Prescut
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GCF
Member
And good luck slugging the bore - on a S&W...
oddshooter
Member
GCF,
what's the problem slugging the bore on a S&W?
what's the problem slugging the bore on a S&W?
It is hard to measure a slug that has been pushed through a bore with 5 lands and grooves.
I had my 25-5 for a number of years before I heard of the oversize issue. It has a six inch barrel and is damned accurate with the .452 lead bullets. I did check the cylinder and the .452's dropped right through. I never told 25-5 about this and it is still damned accurate and a favorite pistol.
cowboy4evr
Member
Yes it has 5 lands and grooves . You will still get a fairly accurate measurement. It's being done all the time .
GCF
Member
5 lands / 5 groves. Tough to get an precise measurement off a slug - w/ a mic or caliper. I've heard that someone makes a special tool for the job, but I don't have one.
Anymore, for the purposes of determining optimum sized diameter for CB's, I have pretty much quit worrying about S&W revolver barrel groove diameter. From what I've seen, their .45 colt barrels are pretty uniform & as you point out, .452" CB's - through uniform .4525" throats, should provide good results.
Same goes for their .44, & .38 / .357 barrels, as well.
As far as the "oversize throat" M25-5's go, I am quite sure that with a little ingenuity (soft alloy maybe?), they can be made to shoot satisfyingly tight groups - right along w/ the rest of them...
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GCF
Member
Agreed - you can get a "fairly accurate" measurement. I've done it in the past, but never felt that the results were precise.
Frankly, I'm usually more concerned w/ non-uniform, and / or undersize cylinder throats, for cast bullets.
l shoot .455''/250gr soft swaged Remington bullets in my 10 1/2'' 460PC..
Loaded at 45LC velocities, stuffed into full length 460 Mag cases.. Very accurate too..
Putten a ''little squeeze'' on those Remingtons didn't hurt them at ALL
Loaded at 45LC velocities, stuffed into full length 460 Mag cases.. Very accurate too..
Putten a ''little squeeze'' on those Remingtons didn't hurt them at ALL
GCF
Member
Jaymoore - Thanks for the info. Always new there was a special tool for the job, & also, that there was a good reason why I didn't personally own one...
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Rumor has it, that "some" cast bullet manufacturers (Dardas for example) have these tools, & will measure bore slugs - as a customer service.
Slug cylinder throats and measure. No lands and grooves there.
Slug barrel. What kind of pressure does it take to presses that slug through throat. If it takes much pressure bore is bigger than throat. Bad. Throat needs opened up. If it fall through throat is bigger than bore groove dia. Not so good. Use throat size bullet or make a new cylinder.
You could always make a test plate. Drill series of holes in say 1/2 plate. Use and adjustable reamer to make one hole .451, another .452, .453, .454, .455 etc. Check slugs with that, but what you really want is throat size, so slug them and measure.
I have made my own cylinders because I can, but I think it is mostly a whole lot of hand wringing over nothing. If I just had one 45 colt (I have 5 and am going to build a couple more.) and it had over sized throats I would shoot what ever sized lead bullets fit the throats. Maybe coated bullets.
Slug barrel. What kind of pressure does it take to presses that slug through throat. If it takes much pressure bore is bigger than throat. Bad. Throat needs opened up. If it fall through throat is bigger than bore groove dia. Not so good. Use throat size bullet or make a new cylinder.
You could always make a test plate. Drill series of holes in say 1/2 plate. Use and adjustable reamer to make one hole .451, another .452, .453, .454, .455 etc. Check slugs with that, but what you really want is throat size, so slug them and measure.
I have made my own cylinders because I can, but I think it is mostly a whole lot of hand wringing over nothing. If I just had one 45 colt (I have 5 and am going to build a couple more.) and it had over sized throats I would shoot what ever sized lead bullets fit the throats. Maybe coated bullets.
