Narrowed my first AR15 down to 4: help

[CBA44]

By the way, there's a danger in relying too much on that chart. AR makers move with the market and change features and materials to keep up with competition. For example, my CMMG M4 has a 4150 barrel and the bolt is MPI tested, so the information contained there is not universally accurate (depending on the model number) because vendors make more than one sort of configuration. For example, CMMG has made two or three different M4 uppers over time. Therefore the chart should not be relied upon exclusively without confirming whether or not it applies to the particular model of the one you might be looking for.

Those types of things are discussed here.
NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4 Pattern Carbines - M4Carbine.net Forums

Top of this page you will see he says " Trust, but verify, is in effect and as always, caveat emptor."

Lot of people on here just seem to not want to hear that Smith and Wesson is not the "be all and end all"....

NONE of them are. There are lots of differences that you can see looking at that chart, especially if you are new to the platform. You can get a kind of feel for what you are buying and learn at the same time.

It's only too bad that Smith and DPMS ( cough cough) won't pony up their super top secret info. We ALL know how great DPMS are!

 

[JaPes]

Good lord the "Colt" parrots have come out.

1st Time AR Buyer: What AR should I buy?

Colt Parrot: Buy a Colt.

1st Time AR Buyer: Why?

Colt Parrot: Because it holds it's resale value.​

The position in support of Colt that a Colt will retain it's resale value inherently implies that a new manufacture Colt AR15 is a rifle that most do not hold onto for the long term. It will help you cut your losses when you finally realize it's not the one you want, and you go buy the one you should have bought to begin with.

1st Time AR Buyer: What AR should I buy?

Colt Parrot: Buy a Colt.

1st Time AR Buyer: Why?

Colt Parrot: Because it's mil-specs.​

The supporting stance that a Colt is better because it's mil-specs isn't relevant in the civilian modern sporting rifle. Mil-specs is a minimum standard for use in the military. As civilians, we don't need to constrain a manufacturer to mil-spec.

I'm a civilian. I can't own an M4. An M4 is a select fire firearm. All I can own is a semi-auto. Why do I need to pay the extra $$$ for full-auto capable components when I'll never be able to go full auto? Can the cost differential between military use / civilian use be put towards civilian market innovations that are better than their mi-spec cousins?

*SIGH*

The AR15 platform is built upon a foundation of standardized dimensions. Differences in manufacturing processes, component materials, non-standard compatible parts & accessories combine to make an AR15 infinitely customizable.

Employ your critical thinking skills. Separate credible information from unsupported bovine excrement. Question the credibility of the source.

Buy an AR15 that floats your boat. If the prancing pony roll mark gives you the warm fuzzies at night, buy it. If saving money by buying a competitive priced AR15 floats your boat, buy it. If a DIY job is your thing, do it.

MY OPINION:

There are so many different companies assembling AR15 rifles. Most of those companies source components from the same group of suppliers, then apply their roll marks.

Educate yourself in the differences in the components. That way you can judge a rifle by the sum of its parts and not the roll mark on the receiver.

 

[Stebo]

Those types of things are discussed here.
NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4 Pattern Carbines - M4Carbine.net Forums

There are lots of differences that you can see looking at that chart

CBA44, I asked a very simple question - "Can someone point out a superior feature of the Colt on The Chart?" PLEASE, tell me about some of these "lots of differences" that make the Colt superior that you see on The Chart, but I can't seem to find.

 

[627 city hunter]

Look dudes,

ARMALITE AR-15(t) or AR-10(t)


Best deal even on the net.

1" M.O.A. guaranteed

1000-1200 clams.

Colt lulz...

Screw Colt ridiculous mark up.

 

[RKBAGUY]

Those types of things are discussed here.
NEW Comparison Chart of Commercial M4 Pattern Carbines - M4Carbine.net Forums

Top of this page you will see he says " Trust, but verify, is in effect and as always, caveat emptor."

Yes, but the question was asked here among us, though I'm sure the OP appreciates the link to that site - it's a great reference. Caveat Emptor is sound advice on any day.

The supporting stance that a Colt is better because it's mil-specs isn't relevant in the civilian modern sporting rifle. Mil-specs is a minimum standard for use in the military. As civilians, we don't need to constrain a manufacturer to mil-spec constraints.

... I'm a civilian. I can't own an M4. An M4 is a select fire firearm. All I can own is a semi-auto.

If you're referring to my post, it's clear you mis-read my meaning. What I was saying is that the Colt has, in times past, NOT used standard sized parts (which I refer to as Mil-Spec, since that term refers to both material and dimensions), and THAT minimum standard of being able to replace a broken or missing trigger group pin can mean the difference between a gun that works and a paperweight.

Regarding build materials relative to the MilSpec, I think we're saying the same thing. It's alright - in fact preferable - to have a rifle that meets or exceeds the MilSpec minimum standard. But it's NOT alright in my view to have one with pins that are a proprietary dimension.

As to the M4 term, I don't think anyone here was confused by that, or the difference between SemiAuto and Class 3, but I'm perfectly willing to accommodate your point by referring to my rifle (and others of its kind) as an M4gery.

 

[cyphertext]

CBA44, I asked a very simple question - "Can someone point out a superior feature of the Colt on The Chart?" PLEASE, tell me about some of these "lots of differences" that make the Colt superior that you see on The Chart, but I can't seem to find.

Stebo, are you speaking to only the manufacturers listed on the chart, or are you speaking to S&W vs. manufacturers listed?

If it is S&W, depending on the model, there are several boxes that S&W can't mark yes in. Now, having said that, the question in my mind though is "does it matter?"

So my S&W uses 4140 vs 4150 CMV...Does that matter when I am not shooting full auto, therefore not heating the barrel as much and not subjecting it to the same use?

S&W uses a semi auto BCG...Again, so? I am shooting semi auto, does it matter?

S&W uses 1:9 barrel twist on many rifles, and the chart calls for 1:7...If shooting 55gr primarily, do you really need the faster twist?

The chart is an ok guide, if used correctly, but keep in mind your intended use for the firearm. Many items on the chart may be necessary for a military use firearm, but they may not apply to typical civilian use.

 

[CBA44]

CBA44, I asked a very simple question - "Can someone point out a superior feature of the Colt on The Chart?" PLEASE, tell me about some of these "lots of differences" that make the Colt superior that you see on The Chart, but I can't seem to find.

Look a little harder. SOME of them were mentioned in the post right before this one.

 

[JaPes]

If you're referring to my post,

No sir. Not referring to your post. I'm responding to ubiquitous "Buy a Colt" general rationale. I get irked because I see it all too often.

Regarding build materials relative to the MilSpec, I think we're saying the same thing. It's alright - in fact preferable - to have a rifle that meets or exceeds the MilSpec minimum standard. But it's NOT alright in my view to have one with pins that are a proprietary dimension.

Sir, you found the words that I could not last night. I want standardized dimensions. It makes life easier.

As to the M4 term, I don't think anyone here was confused by that, or the difference between SemiAuto and Class 3, but I'm perfectly willing to accommodate your point by referring to my rifle (and others of its kind) as an M4gery.

I don't like M4gery. It has a negative connotation.

Those with experience know that there is a difference between an AR 15 and an M16/M4. I like the latest label applied to the Civilian AR15, "Modern Sporting Rifle". That's what it is for me. A bonus is that if the term goes mainstream, the AR15 becomes thought of as a sporting rifle not a tactical or assault rifle. It negates the "sporting purposes" criteria that the gun control advocates bandy about.

 

[Stebo]

Stebo, are you speaking to only the manufacturers listed on the chart, or are you speaking to S&W vs. manufacturers listed?

cyphertext,

We occasionally see a thread in which the poster asks for advice on which weapon to buy. Invariably there are several responses touting Colt superiority, and a Colt fanboy pointing to The Chart to justify the superior claim.

OK, I went to The Chart. Here's what I see - the Colt is industry standard. I look at the chart and if I can't see the manufacturer's name to the left, cannot tell one from the other. The standards listed are nearly identical from one manufacturer to the next.

There is NOTHING on The Chart that makes the Colt stand out as superior, or even just a little better.

I'm looking at The Chart right now. Take Stag, for example. They used to manufacture for S&W. The only difference between Stag and Colt is barrel steel. Stag lists 4150, Colt and 6 others lists 11595E Certified. 11595E Certified is just that, a certification. Colt is till using 4150.

But I can be convinced if some Colt fanboy will just tell me what I'm missing on The Chart. I've asked CBA44 twice now to point out something in The Chart that demonstrates Colt superiority, and he hasn't. In fact, that's not a fair question to ask, because he obviously can't demonstrate Colt superiority using The Chart.

Maybe the Colt is a superior weapon, maybe it once was a few years ago but no longer. Maybe Colt fanboys are living in the past. This seems to me a very mature industry, and it's very difficult to differentiate from one manufacturer to the next in the same price range.

I'm still waiting to be convinced of the Colt superiority

 

[lamorinda]

I know I am just a newbie torturing myself emotionally on which AR15 to buy...
But I want my post back on topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for posting the chart, I did look at it. I have seen it appear in may other forums. After I looked at it, I closed it. And to be honest with everyone (as 48 year old banker rancher type from Northern California who likes to drink beer), I didn't really give it another thought. Maybe it struck a chord with other folks looking, just not with me. Again, thanks for posting it.

So I tried pulling the trigger on the SP MP Sport From Quanitco Tactical Yesterday and at the last minute the San Diego store informed me that the advertised price is for non Ca Legal guns and for a Ca Legal gun 811038 the Sport would be $90 more. F&%*king B#@$%ARDS. Maybe it was an honest mistake, or maybe not, But I don't Like that kind of BS.

Moving on, I found the Sportmansoutdoor has one for $619 with free shipping, so I will see how it goes as I am calling when I finish writing this.

 

[cyphertext]

For your intended use as a ranch gun and plinking fun, I don't think you can go wrong with the Sport. Great gun for coyotes, hogs, prairie dogs, and other vermin and, in my opinion, is built fine for zombies, the big one, or any other SHTF scenario that may or may not happen in your lifetime.

Good thing about the CA compliant guns, they can turn into regular guns if they escape from CA. Where did you find the MOE for $850? That seems to be a steal.

 

[oneyeopn]

I myself have found the Sport to be an excellent choice. I personally have shot mine side by side at the same time with a Bushmaster and a Colt. They all functioned the same with no problems. What really sold me was the accuracy difference in the barrels. They were all adequately accurate but the Sports groups were almost half of what the others were and this was with iron sights and me pulling the trigger. My nephew has an OR, I dont find it any more accurate than my Sport with the same size scope on it. He is an exceptional shot and is in the military and has been for 10 years. He works in developing weapons systems and is very good at what he does, he recommended the S&W to me. At the time all I could afford was a Sport but I really like my little friend!!
As others have said though, get what your heart desires. From my experience if you don't you wont be happy till you do!

 

[lamorinda]

And the Answer is?

If you have been following my post, my neighbor came over with two of his ar15's for me to play with. He built his and has convinced me to build one!!! (in all fairness, he suggested to buy the Sport and just modify it down the road. But I made a choice to take advantage of his expertise and after all I have read, I think it will be more fun and I will enjoy the comradery of hanging out with a buddy.)

So I pulled the the trigger...
I bought 1 Spike's Stripped with Pirate logo (had in stock in Sacramento Goldenstate Tactical for $109)
and
2 Surplus Ammo Stripped (from Atomic Tactical for $69 a piece).
Supporting Calguns.net sponsors

My thought is to build the SPike's as my number one AR and use left over parts for another and finally keep one in the safe for emergencies

I am going to start a new thread on my build...

 

[oneyeopn]

I built one with the leftover parts from modifying my Sport so have fun!!

 

[JaPes]

If you have been following my post, my neighbor came over with two of his ar15's for me to play with. He built his and has convinced me to build one!!! (in all fairness, he suggested to buy the Sport and just modify it down the road. But I made a choice to take advantage of his expertise and after all I have read, I think it will be more fun and I will enjoy the comradery of hanging out with a buddy.)

I called around my LGS and found a Yankee Hill in stock for $98!
So I bought it. Could of had a Noveske for $159, but my neighbor said save the money and buy an add on with it.
I feel good about it all!

I will follow up on my build.

Glad you made a decision. Assembling your first AR is one of those "forever" memories. Good buy on a Yankee Hill stripped lower? I assume it's a stripped lower. Having someone who's been there show you the way gives you an instant head start... and access to the specialized tools.

Beware, AR's tend to multiply.

 

[Longhorn90]

Get ready, once you start building it can be difficult to stop......AR's are basically "Lego's for adults".

 

[JaPes]

Get ready, once you start building it can be difficult to stop......AR's are basically "Lego's for adults".

Legos were never this much fun.

 

[Maddmax]

The really great part about building your own. You'll know how to fix it if there any problems or want to upgrade anything. Do your research on what you want to add/use and buy once. You are about to embark on one of the most frustrating projects you'll enjoy and will be pure pleasure in the end. Do your homework and get busy. Keep us posted on your on going project. Most of all,good luck and have fun !!!!!

 

[rtquig]

Good luck on your final decision. Maddmax is correct, you will know how to fix anything on the carbine if it breaks. One of these days I build one, for now I don't have the patience. Having a friend who knows how to build one is half of the battle.

 

[rebs081]

Just my 2 cents worth.
I own a Sport and I am completely happy with it. With my handloads it shoots a 1/2 inch group at 100 yds. With that being said, for my next AR I want a 20 inch barrel. I am seriously considering the Windham Weaponry Varmint Exterminator.
I have not owned a Colt Match Target with 20 inch barrel, but a friend gave me his for a month to work up a load for it for him and to be honest it just did not shoot as well as I or he thought it would. Perhaps he just got a sub standard one or perhaps that's all the accuracy they are capable of. I don't know, He sold it and has not bothered to buy another one.