Need for a high cap CC pistol?

I had a short visit with an old friend in his business yesterday. We both carry at all times. (His business is in a bad part of town anyway.) Last time we talked (couple years ago) I believe he was carrying some kind of Springfield XD .40 caliber. Now he showed me his EDC, a Hellcat with the extended magazine, plus an extra magazine in his off side pocket. I told him I was still carrying my 642, but had replaced the cylinder with a titanium. I emptied my 642 and handed it to him. He hefted it in his hand and said "ooooohhh man" with kind of a wistful look on his face.

I'm not at all opposed to more capacity. If S&W made an Airweight .38 Special that was the same size and weight as my 642 and held 10 rounds I'd jump on it. :D

I also carry a Bodyguard when not carrying the 642. I sent a note to Ruger telling them if they added a thumb safety to the LCP Max, they've got me.

I guess I just like small and light for carry, and I'm willing to accept the limitations of that.
 
I either carry my Glock 19 or my Glock 26. When I worked for G4S I was required to qualify with my (really their) work gun biannually. I was also required to qualify with my Glock 19 in order to carry it for my church security team. I qualified "expert" (94% or higher) every time. So there's your spray and pray.

You do you Boo

There's a couple things to consider.

A handgun needs to be light enough, comfortable, enough and concealable enough that you are willing and able to carry it all day long.

However it also has to fit your head well enough and be heavy enough that it's comfortable to shoot.

I shoot a lot and I am flexible about what I carry. I have more or less always swung back to a commander sized 1911, but I also don't mind carrying a revolver, especially in the winter when a 3" 686+ loaded with .357 Mag hollow points appeals to me.

I have a 3" Model 60 and I shoot it better than most folks shoot even a larger revolver, but I shoot a 3" K or L frame better, and it's far more comfortable to shoot with .357 Magnum loads. In a proper belt and IWB holster it's also comfortable to carry and easy to conceal, so the smaller J frame offers no upsides to offset the smaller capacity and somewhat fierce recoil that slows follow up shots.

When I see people with scandium frame J frames loaded with .357 Magnum. I seriously question how often they've shot it with that load and how competent they are with it. Realistically most of them, if they ever actually have to use it, will be pointing it in the general direction of the threat and mashing the trigger.

On the other hand I also have a CZ 75 SP01 Tactical that will hold 19 rounds and is exceptionally controllable given the 38 oz weight (empty) and 9mm Luger cartridge. It's a great range gun, or night stand gun. However it weighs 49 oz loaded and it's about 9 oz more than I want to carry, even before you start considering spare magazines that weight 11 oz each. The pistol and 2 spare magazines would weigh almost four and a half pounds, not including holster and mag carrier.

When I encounter people carrying similar equipment as their EDC, I have to seriously wonder whether they are really going to carry it all the time. When the pregnant wife wants them to go down to the local stab and grab at 11pm to get her a pint of Ben and Jerry's, I'm betting they probably are not taking all that. If they do, they'll do it for a few years and then stop.

——

By the above metrics I don't consider a Glock 19 to be be overly large as it's around 40 oz loaded. It's still readily wearable, and has enough weight to be easy to shoot well.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CB3
When I encounter people carrying similar equipment as their EDC, I have to seriously wonder whether they are really going to carry it all the time. When the pregnant wife wants them to go down to the local stab and grab at 11pm to get her a pint of Ben and Jerry's, I'm betting they probably are not taking all that. If they do, they'll do it for a few years and then stop.

I know this wasn't directed specifically at me but I wanted to respond to it.

When I worked for G4S I had to wear Body Armor, I had to wear a duty belt, I had to carry an M&P40 in a Safariland 7280 holster(light but very bulky) and two magazines. I had to carry OC and a big Motarola Brick radio and the company phone and a big set of keys to the city and handcuffs.

Allied took away the brick and the body armor and the handcuffs and keys and I carried a Glock instead of an M&P.

On my own I carried a pocket knife and a Multitool, two flashlights, my phone, a note book and pen and my keys.

Now in retirement my "EDC" is; my phone (with the ringer OFF), a handkerchief, my wallet, a small can of POM, a Gerber Multitool, a pocket knife, one small flashlight, two reloads and either the Glock 19 or the 26. That just doesn't seem like a lot to me.

I don't go to stop and robs at all and certainly not at 11pm. So my pregnant wife would be out of luck but assuming I did it would be the 26, one reload, knife, Multitool and flashlight. Still doesn't seem like a lot.

Key word here being RETIRED
 
Last edited:
Any links to these sources, even if just the stories being told?

Expanding the database is good, even if operating in the extreme edge of the bell curve.
*
I doubt it. It is a few years since I saw those reports, and I can't recall which collector of info reported on those. It might have been Farnam, as likely Wenger. You can probably do as well googling Givens reports as I can.

My recollection is that his corporate name was "Ringmaster"; he was located in Memphis, which is going to skew the data a bit because it such a troubled area. You can also look for the book I have cited here several times by Urey Patrick and John Hall. The 3rd edition is the newest, and has a good discussion of terminal ballistics in ... Chapter 4, IIRC.
 
I am not so sure that the capacity debate is as clear as some say. Tom Givens has done some analysis of shootings involving past students, and his research would lead a reasonable person to err on the side of capacity. Gary Roberts told of an incident while out walking his dog involving a substantial number of miscreants, and referred to the G19 as today's J frame.

I try to not go to dumb places, like Yakima, Spokane, the Tri-Cities, or Seattle. If I have to, it most likely means a G17 with red dot. When I had my surgery in September, the best I could do was a G42 in a pocket; I was restricted to sweat pants and the like for 5 weeks.

Whatever you carry has to work every time, and be something with which you are proficient and reasonably comfortable. Something is better than nothing (hence that G42). The gun you leave elsewhere is of no value at all.

Givens small report seems to suggest that capacity is rarely important in gun fights. All the statistics, from every source, seems to always fall around 3-5 shots fired in almost all encounters.

As much as some claim, and even state outright, "capacity is the most important factor", all evidence and statistics always disagree.
 
Criminals do indeed often travel in packs, but thinking you're going to prevail against multiple armed inner city gang members in a firefight with your micro 9mm or even a full size plastic fantastic with 3 reloads just doesn't really jive with reality IMO. Theoretically possible, but unlikely and where is the evidence of civilians being forced into these kinds of scenarios except perhaps in the rarest and most bizarre set of circumstances.

You're gun could realistically help potentially provide a "break in contact" to facilitate an exit from the scene if need be and my J-frame will most assuredly be able to accomplish that as well as my Glock 17, plus my snub will perform better in close-quarter situations I am unable to avoid.
 
Givens small report seems to suggest that capacity is rarely important in gun fights. All the statistics, from every source, seems to always fall around 3-5 shots fired in almost all encounters.

As much as some claim, and even state outright, "capacity is the most important factor", all evidence and statistics always disagree.

In my experience most folks don't understand data, what it really means or what conclusions can logically be drawn from it - and what things cannot. Thus, they don't trust data or statistics, but rather rely on people they see (sometimes legitimately, often not) as authority figures.

People also suffer from both "anchor bias" and "confirmation bias". People tend to believe the first thing they hear from someone who they regard (rightly or otherwise) as an "authority". Unfortunately that information is sometimes taken and or presented out of context, and or lacks necessary qualifiers, and or is based on erroneous conclusions from data.

When that happens it makes absolutely no difference. People continue to believe it because it's the first strong opinion they formed. Thus the "anchor" bias.

They build on that false assumption and related opinion(s) by seeking out information that agrees or confirms their opinion, while rejecting information that doesn't support their opinion. That's the "confirmation" bias.

For example, someone might read about an officer involved shooting where more than 15 shots were fired and a spare magazine was needed. Despite that being a rare occurrence - around 4% of all officer involved shootings, even when officers go looking for bad guys in bad neighborhoods. An armed citizen won't see the differences or the low rate of occurrence and might conclude they should carry a high capacity semi auto and a spare magazine "just in case", without considering the downsides.

Then they read an article like the Givens article where again the data clearly supports the concept that 90+ percent of defensive shoots will be adequately addressed with 3 or 4 rounds, and similarly noted that only 3 of 63 shoots (about 4%) required significantly more rounds (8, 11 and 12), with no one needing to reload. However, they'll see those 3rd standard deviation tail of the distribution statistical anomalies (with no explanation of why more shots were fired, and or whether they were even necessary, and or the result of poor shooting) and conclude they should err on the side of caution and carry a high capacity semi auto and make that a priority in their defensive handgun selection.

Interestingly people stuck in confirmation bias mode will almost certainly ignore the data showing 3 out of 66 students "forfeited" by being unarmed. At a minimum that should raise the question of whether those three may have been armed had they chosen a lighter, smaller, more concealable firearm. Again that's about 4% and again statistically in the tail of the distribution. None the less, ot should be just as compelling as the "need more than 3-4 rounds" data. But it's not viewed that way as it doesn't support their preferred opinion, so it's just rejected.

——-

The thing is you won't move people off those established opinions with facts, data, or rational arguments, and when you fail, people generally just dig in deeper with their beliefs.

The best you can do is to engage them in a conversation and listen for a switch from "sustaining" their belief for things that suggest doubt or uncertainty about their belief and then have them expand on that "change" talk. You are essentially getting them to identify their own motivation to change.

For example I'm a die hard 1911 guy and it was a major change for me to accept that I actually liked CZ-75s. They fit my hand, I like the DA operation for a number of reasons, 9mm hollow points are more effective than they used to be, etc. Openness to those positives about the CZ-75 eventually led to a motivation to try one, then buy one, then carry one.

I am however not a Glock / striker fired tactical Tupperware fan. Still, if you get me talking about Glocks, you might get me to say "the odds of me carrying a Glock are pretty small". The approach then is to ask me why I didn't say the odds are zero, which will draw me out in terms of talking about their good points - and they do have a few. It won't be an immediate win, but at least you've got me open to a remote possibility and over time as I see things that support the possibility of changing my opinion, the odds of me changing my opinion become less remote.

You can do the same thing with someone who insists on a high capacity semi-auto and two spare magazines for EDC. When you get him talking about it, you'll eventually get him talking about the things he doesn't like about it, such as "the whole package weighs over 4 pounds and by the ne of the day my back hurts", or "it's totally impractical when we go to the beach", etc. That's at least an opening to talk about what factors might get him to consider backing off to a more comfortable EDC and or smaller, lower capacity handgun.

Once you get people open to new ideas, it helps moves them off their anchor and confirmation biases and they do open up a bit to new ideas and different ways of looking at issues.

The rest of it is just letting the new ideas percolate to the point they don't automatically reject ideas that differ from their previous opinions - and leaving them an out where they can evolve to a new position without having to admit they were "wrong".

Sometimes it's a matter of getting them to separate conflated beliefs. For example many 2A folks will reject the data saying you don't need 15 rounds in a self defense handgun because that could be construed as supporting the anti-gun argument that "no one needs more than 10 rounds" in any handgun or rifle.

One doesn't really have anything to do with the other. I have a right to own, shoot and carry an MP5 with a half dozen 30 round magazines, but that doesn't make it the ideal EDC for me.
 
Criminals do indeed often travel in packs, but thinking you're going to prevail against multiple armed inner city gang members in a firefight with your micro 9mm or even a full size plastic fantastic with 3 reloads just doesn't really jive with reality IMO. Theoretically possible, but unlikely and where is the evidence of civilians being forced into these kinds of scenarios except perhaps in the rarest and most bizarre set of circumstances.

You're gun could realistically help potentially provide a "break in contact" to facilitate an exit from the scene if need be and my J-frame will most assuredly be able to accomplish that as well as my Glock 17, plus my snub will perform better in close-quarter situations I am unable to avoid.

Agreed. If through incredibly poor judgment and or incredibly bad situational awareness I ever get it into that kind of inner city, multiple bad guy situation, my primary objective won't be to fight it out, corner them or apprehend them, it'll be to just get out.

I often carry a Kimber Micro as a back up gun, and one of its main purposes is to hand off to my spouse who doesn't like to carry, but is certainly willing and able to use it while leading the retreat while I use my primary to cover our withdrawal.
 
I've been carrying a J Frame (off duty & back-up weapon) since I got out of the Army in '76. I've never had any problem hitting the target with them (so if it ain't broken I'm not gonna fix it). Due to my bad back I've transitioned to a 340PD loaded with .38 Special. If I need to reload, (I hope) I'm carrying my "New York Reload" 442-2, loaded with the same ammo as my 340PD.
 
Originally Posted by cracker57 View Post
This is why they push and sell Hi cap pistols. The sad thing is people think if I have 20 rounds I don't even have to aim, I will be able to spray and pray. The pray should be "Hope to hell I don't hit someone I shouldn't and hope I hit the bad guy."
So no need to train...I feel save with 20 rounds.

You're joking, right?
I am joking, but I believe some think that with 20+ rounds they are safe and can stop an army.
 
Right out of the Marine Corps I carried every day, all the time. As the years went on I worked for different areas of the federal government and lived all over the country and even on an Air Force base until I retired. I got more and more lackadaisical about it as time went on because many places I just could not carry. I bought a new M&P 40 several years ago and it was pretty much carried between my night stand and my truck every day. I have a rental property in a very nice neighborhood I was working on trying to clean up and sell. To make a long long story very short, there was a guy in the back yard appearing to be yanking out weeds and pulling on the fence. I walked out there and started to tell him to get the hell out of my yard. He turned around about 15 or 20 feet away from me with an axe in his hand. Obviously a meth head or something. He did not come at me with the axe, and I extricated myself from this without anyone getting hurt. But it could have went very poorly. I later found out he was recently released from prison and had charges pending again. Since then I carry all the time again. I said all that to say this, find something you find comfortable and carry it. All the time.
 
Over the last few years we have seen (at the urging of a mega wealthy Hungarian business mogul and other left wing Billionaires) criminals instructed to move into the rich parts of town - all the years in the past they could not figure that out! So now you see crime in the best of areas and now the so called rich, helpless people are starting to realize they need a SD plan and the tools to do so. Sometimes just a few rounds will not cut it when defending yourself against a "wolf-pack" in your home, but those type of weapons are usually not well suited for EDC. A one gun for every situation has not been built yet!!
 
Do you really believe Soros calls criminals and tells them to move into rich parts of town? And they say, "Oh, ok Mr Soros, I will call U Haul right now. Good idea." Really?
Over the last few years we have seen (at the urging of a mega wealthy Hungarian business mogul and other left wing Billionaires) criminals instructed to move into the rich parts of town - all the years in the past they could not figure that out! So now you see crime in the best of areas and now the so called rich, helpless people are starting to realize they need a SD plan and the tools to do so. Sometimes just a few rounds will not cut it when defending yourself against a "wolf-pack" in your home, but those type of weapons are usually not well suited for EDC. A one gun for every situation has not been built yet!!
 
For me it's all about size and weight. I own a Glock 19 and an M&P 2.0 Compact. Too big to carry. For me, it's either a 640 in .38, a Shield Plus, Ruger LC9-S ( I like the mag disconnect), or a Bodyguard .380. Don't carry an extra mag or a speed strip or speed loader. Don't carry flashlights. Do carry a Leatherman Wave, but just in case I need a screwdriver for my glasses.

I do not leave my house with a "Warrior Mindset". I do not dwell on "situational awareness". I don't stress about tactical reloads. I will not live my life in paranoia or fear. I keep my eyes open and my head out of my butt and go about my life. Twice, I know I was being scoped out. I dealt with it accordingly and the lowlifes chose to go on their way.

If the world goes to hell and the zombies rise, I'll change it up. Until then, my way has worked for nearly 30 years. I figure it will take me the rest of the way.
 
Last edited:
For me it's all about size and weight. I own a Glock 19 and an M&P 2.0 Compact. Too big to carry. For me, it's either a 640 in .38, a Shield Plus, Ruger LC9-S ( I like the mag disconnect), or a Bodyguard .380. Don't carry an extra mag or a speed strip or speed loader. Don't carry flashlights. Do carry a Leatherman Wave, but just in case I need a screwdriver for my glasses.

I do not leave my house with a "Warrior Mindset". I do not dwell on "situational awareness". I don't stress about tactical reloads. I will not live my life in paranoia or fear. I keep my eyes open and my head out of my butt and go about my life. Twice, I know I was being scoped out. I dealt with it accordingly and the lowlifes chose to go on their way.

If the world goes to hell and the zombies rise, I'll change it up. Until then, my way has worked for nearly 30 years. I figure it will take me the rest of the way.

And the award for sensible post of the year goes to (dramatic pause): kbm6893!!!
 
... I believe some think that with 20+ rounds they are safe and can stop an army.

In LE we're taught to think that every one of those rounds has a lawsuit attached to it. I would hate to hit an innocent person with a stray round.
 
Back
Top