need help please- identifying antique 44 revolver

[kamloops67]

i have been offered this antique in trade for a rifle, prescribed antiques are a good thing to have in canada, as one can carry and discharge it anywhere one can discharge a rifle. this would become a LEGALwilderness carry gun. it fires a "cut down 44s" thats all i know. can anyone here identify this revolver? it has no marks except the stylized FN on the grips .ive searched fabrique nationale but didnt find any thing. current owner doesnt know either.

the quality of the images is deplorable, as i took a picture of my monitor as a last ditch attempt to post these pics.
i was also offered a new in box beretta 96 a1. decisions,decisions

 

[Roadtrash]

maybe it's just the picture or my old eyes but is the barrel bent?

 

[kamloops67]

maybe it's just the picture or my old eyes but is the barrel bent?

haha a bad pic. your eyes are fine . it does look a little "melted" though.

 

[Cyrano]

It has a Nagant type extraction system,and my guess is that it is Belgian. I'd have to get out my reprint of the 1911 Alfa catalog to see if there's anything like that in it.

 

[Texas Star]

May be a Belgian copy of a Tranter or Adams, probably the latter.

I wouldn't invest much in it.

 

[desi2358]

The overall style of the revolver is that of the "Bulldog" type. These revolvers were very popular from the 1870's up until the early 1900's. The first ones were English make, quickly followed by US and Belgian makers. Most bore names such as "British Bulldog", "American Bulldog", etc.

Most were small guns of large (38, 44 or 45) caliber but they were also made as a large frame which was sold as the "Frontier" model. I have a book "The British Bulldog Revolver" by George Layman and it mentions these along with many other variations. The basic design was very popular and also inspired other makers who simply used the Bulldog name.

Most 44 cal were chambered for the 44 Webley cartridge though others are sometimes encountered. Depending on origin it should have British or Belgian proof marks as most were made in those two countries. US made examples are usually pocket size not the larger frontier size and likely would not have the trigger guard spur. If the gun has been refinished the markings may have been polished to the point they are no longer visible. The spur on the trigger guard makes me suspect Belgium over Britain as that is a more continental feature. Based on your pictures the gun just shouts Bulldog!

 

[walnutred]

What makes a firearm and antique in canada?

 

[kamloops67]

Handguns:

manufactured before 1898 that can discharge only rim-fire cartridges, other than .22 Calibre Short, .22 Calibre Long or .22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges;
manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson,
.32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt,
.38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt cartridges.

 

[kamloops67]

as you can see there are some "loop holes" as 38spl 44 spl and 45 acp are not mentioned. ive seen colt saa models attain $3-5000 there are a number of webleys and enfields that can fit here as well.
s&w models in 44 russian .
any percussion guns manufactured before 1898

 

[walnutred]

So a S&W in 44 Russian would be an antique then.

 

[kamloops67]

So a S&W in 44 Russian would be an antique then.

yes if manufactured before 1898 ,there is a market here for them.
ive seen bores that look like sewer pipes sell for north of a grand.
people want to be able to defend themselves, without breaking the law.

 

[kamloops67]

thanks all you guys who tried to help ID this antique. after sleeping on it ,i decided to decline the trade offer .i was thinking belgian too.
i got offered a s&w 586 plus cash now we're talkin'!

 

[Texas Star]

I don't think there are any .38 Special or .44 Special guns made before 1898.

Faced with that legislation, I think I'd look for a Webley WG in great shape, or a MK III or IV military .455 or a Colt SAA in .455, and use the .455 MK I, also called .455 Colt ammo.

Can you use handloads? The rub is, these guns are meant for black powder and you could easily overload one unless you use black powder at pressures similar to those in the 1890's. I don't think you can find any .476 ammo, so the Enfield is out. It was a poor design, anyway. Some Webley and Colt guns were chambered for the ctg., which was probably pretty effctive. (288 grain bullet at some 700 FPS).

The later Enfields appeared about 1929 and take the .38 S&W load, so are not antiques.

Is there an excption for modern-made BP REPLICAS? I think even the draconian UK laws may allow those. That'd get you into the .36 and .44 revolvers like were used in our civil War. You could do worse.

 

[Texas Star]

I just realized that without the trigger guard spur, this gun consideraby resembles a Webley Army Express made in the 1870's. It was not an adopted arm, officers then buying their own sidearms. Most bought Tranters or Adams products, and many used Colts. I have not seen any references to any using S&W, and supplies would have been limited, due to S&W being so busy with their Russian and Schofield contracts. I DO NOT suggest that THIS gun is a Webley.

Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC, remarked that the most effective handgun he saw used on the violent NW frontier of India was the Colt SAA in .44-40. He did not say if he had observed the .45 Colt in use, but quite a few such guns were sold to British officers in India and some supply depots actually stocked the unofficial .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo.

 

[kamloops67]

I don't think there are any .38 Special or .44 Special guns made before 1898.

Faced with that legislation, I think I'd look for a Webley WG in great shape, or a MK III or IV military .455 or a Colt SAA in .455, and use the .455 MK I, also called .455 Colt ammo.

Can you use handloads? The rub is, these guns are meant for black powder and you could easily overload one unless you use black powder at pressures similar to those in the 1890's. I don't think you can find any .476 ammo, so the Enfield is out. It was a poor design, anyway. Some Webley and Colt guns were chambered for the ctg., which was probably pretty effctive. (288 grain bullet at some 700 FPS).

The later Enfields appeared about 1929 and take the .38 S&W load, so are not antiques.

Is there an excption for modern-made BP REPLICAS? I think even the draconian UK laws may allow those. That'd get you into the .36 and .44 revolvers like were used in our civil War. You could do worse.

webley mk 1 were brought back to the factory and refitted for 45 acp . in 1914 i think .those are ok.
it is the frame &serial # that is important. i believe that most of the saa are rebarreled and cylinder'd to one of the calibres not on the list. i dont really know all the grey areas that are being exploited .foolish laws anyway.
modern black powder are restricted like any other handgun but a real antique ,though no less deadly is exempt.
a 1860 army is on my "watch list"

 

[Texas Star]

webley mk 1 were brought back to the factory and refitted for 45 acp . in 1914 i think .those are ok.
it is the frame &serial # that is important. i believe that most of the saa are rebarreled and cylinder'd to one of the calibres not on the list. i dont really know all the grey areas that are being exploited .foolish laws anyway.
modern black powder are restricted like any other handgun but a real antique ,though no less deadly is exempt.
a 1860 army is on my "watch list"

Kamloops-

Some older Webleys were refitted with slightly thicker MK V cylinders, but they were still chambered for .455. The goal was to use thicker chamber walls for ammo loaded wth smokeless Cordite instead of BP. The .45 ACP conversions were done by greedy surplus dealers after the guns left govt. service after being declared obsolete in 1947. During WW I, many of those .455's with new cylnders were issued to the Royal Navy. I've seen photos of them with the crude RN holsters. Those used rivets for strength & to prevent rotting. Army holsters were trimmer and used conventional stitching. Officers' holsters had flaps; Other Ranks holsters were open topped and had a slot for a cleaning rod.

BTW, now that I reflect on it, that Webley Army Express sort of resembles a cross between this gun in the OP and a Colt DA Frontier revolver, with the rod ejector. Their Royal Irish Constabulary models more resemble this gun, although it's larger than most Webleys of that style.

Even if you find a Webley with a low enough frame number to be legal, the mainspring, the hammer nose/firing pin, and the stirrup lock spring are all now old and tend to break in use. You need to have spares on hand, but if you know a gunsmith who can make them from modern steels, that'd be good!

 

[kamloops67]

thanks all you guys who tried to help ID this antique. after sleeping on it ,i decided to decline the trade offer .i was thinking belgian too.
i got offered a s&w 586 plus cash now we're talkin'!

-update

the 586-1 was adopted into my family yesterday. no mystery of an antique but it will work hard and ill be able to service it if and when it becomes necessary .
besides he offered me 5 speedloaders and 3 extra sets of grips and a stack of green

 

[mtgianni]

As a good friend and native Canadian asks, "If you cannot legally carry a handgun in Canada, why does every trading post in the North stock holsters?"

 

[kamloops67]

As a good friend and native Canadian asks, "If you cannot legally carry a handgun in Canada, why does every trading post in the North stock holsters?"

good question, a polite canadian would never deliberately ignore the law of the land, even if it put them in danger and the law had no bearing on common sense..
i think most of us are just "getting ready" for when the laws are revised so we can again defend our loved ones when out on the trail.
my lgs seems to sell a number of 460s, probably just target shooters

 

[steelslaver]

I guess I would never be a "Polite Canadian". I have enough trouble being a polite American. I would never lie to a government that told me the truth though.