NEW ATF DIRECTIVE considered on SS109 - 5.56 ammo

[Rick_A]

This is my smallest and the kid has to throw it over his shoulder.

For me it's a really big, kinda awkward pistol:

I contacted the ATF and my state and national reps on this and other silly rules games the ATF has been playing lately. It may not do much now, but hopefully this foolishness gets on their radar.

ETA:
It may be considered a pistol but it surely ain't no handgun!

 

[ron_zoni]

Maybe this comment was already addressed, but isn't velocity a factor in penetration? Is the velocity of M855 the same from an AR pistol as an AR rifle? Has that been tested by ATF or anyone else?

 

[Smitty357]

Just shoot it all up and reload for some MK. M855 doesn't stand a chance against it and it would still be legal after all the M855 dries up in the next 10-20 years.

 

[Gunhacker]

I don't remember anything about "sporting purposes" mentioned in the 2nd Amendment.

"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

Seems pretty *******g clear to me!

Nothing specifically mentioned in the 2A the covers ammo possession rights either... "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Sorry, but it wasn't difficult to see this coming, it happened once already with 7.62x39 ammo in 1994 when Olympic Arms produced the OA-93, which was an AR-15 based pistol chambered in 7.62x39. The owner of Olympic Arm's was more concerned about making a buck than the door it was opening for the ATF.

Frankly... I've been wondering why it's taken the ATF so long to try and do this with SS109 given the proliferation of AR15 pistols that has been taking place for many years... not to mention the availability of T/C Contender handgun barrels.

This video pretty much sums up the situation... it's a matter of the ATF running amuck... again, without any real legal grounds to back their play.

Unless sufficient push back is done, they're going to get away with it... again.

Military Arms Channel looks as BATF efforts to Ban M855 / SS109

 

[sgtsandman]

Maybe this comment was already addressed, but isn't velocity a factor in penetration? Is the velocity of M855 the same from an AR pistol as an AR rifle? Has that been tested by ATF or anyone else?

Velocity plays a part. Whether the velocity has dropped enough for the intent of the bullet design to not function as intended (penetrate Russian steel helmets), I don't have enough information to answer that. It is not a true armor piercing round per say like the rounds with a steel core made of some kind of hardened steel has.

 

[Gunhacker]

H.R.3132 which became Public Law 99-408 in 1986, is what the BATF is trying to hide behind in proposing that SS109 should be banned because it is an AP round now capable of being fired from a handgun.

H.R. 3132 amended the Federal criminal code to define "armor-piercing ammunition as projectiles constructed from specified material which may be used in handguns.

M855/SS109 fails to meet the test for AP and the BATF is all wet. Also... the antics of the BATF transcend the current administration, you can look as far back to the Clinton Administration when the BATF started to flex their muscle until reigned in by the courts.... Remember the hoopla they created for themselves at the VA Gun shows in 2006?

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC 921(a)(17) and reads:

(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.

The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out of one or more of the listed metals, or be full metal jacket type bullets with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight.

SS109/M855 bullet cores are only partly steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal in the above definition.

 

[Rick_A]

One of the fellows in another forum gleaned this information from the source:

Per Denise Brown of ATF Enforcement Programs and Services in this afternoon's telephone conversation, this will "not actually be a [regulatory] change, more of a policy along those lines." Brown said the framework document is a notice only, and will therefore not be published in the Federal Register, characterizing the document's intent as "information gathering" in order to collect technical information, which could affect the Bureau's final determination.

Brown confirmed ATF's decision not to publish in the Federal Register is based on the exemption provision in the APA. That states "Except when notice or hearing is required by statute, this subsection does not apply ... to interpretative rules, general statements of policy, or rules of agency organization, procedure, or practice." Also exempted is "when the agency for good cause finds (and incorporates the finding and a brief statement of reasons therefore in the rules issued) that notice and public procedure thereon are impracticable, unnecessary, or contrary to the public interest."

As I said in another forum, seeing as no lawful gun owner has intentions of killing law enforcement officers with concealed rifle caliber pistols, it should all be a moot point and such bans are totally useless but to remove one of the most popular types of target ammo off the shelves.

One of the earliest AR pistols:
Bushmaster Arm Pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Produced 1977-1990

I believe Olympic Arms started producing more traditional AR pistols as we know them today in the 80's.

 

[Rick_A]

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/fi..._primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

"ATF Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes"

I.E. "We know know the facts but the opinion of the Attorney General is more important."

As self defense is an unalienable right the "Sporting Purposes" shenanigans are unconstitutional.

 

[firemedic911]

Case of 1000 for $490 out the door

1000 rd case - 5.56 PMC X-TAC M855 62 grain Green Tip FMJ 5.56K LAP Ammo | SGAmmo.com

 

[hoc9sw]

Was at WM today, and went by the ammo counter. Bare to the shelf as usual, except for a fair stack of ZQI new style carton 9mm. I almost kept walking, but something in the stack wasn't right. Stopped and looked - the 5.56 62g (SS109) is now in a box of the same color and almost the same size as the 9. There were a few boxes of the 5.56 mixed in the 9mm stack. I got a clerk with the ammo key, and pulled it.

She mentioned that I was lucky. There had been a fight in the store Thurs night, and they closed the counter at 8 when the police left. In the process they had sold every last round in any box size (including the last ZQI ammo can at $400+). Except for those three boxes no one recognized.

I don't use it, but have a friend who does, so figured at $10/30, it was a good contribution to next (outdoor) range day. My indoor range doesn't allow it.

 

[Ofc.JL]

Gentlemen, Knowing what we do about this "Regime" in the WH, I would say that the Ban is a done deal. If the WH can't disarm the U.S.(and the amount of pvt. weapons in the U.S. is astronomical! Banning any firearms in this country would quite literally lead to a revolt or revolution, I will let you imagine how bad it could get!), then they will go after the ammunition. Now I am no Conspiracy wonk, but where is all the ammo? Some of it has come back, albeit at much higher prices, but where is all the 22LR? The manufacturers say they are running full tilt and have been doing so for the last 2 years and still we don't see much, if any. You can't use a weapon if you have nothing to load into it. Where is all of it, and why?
Oh, and someone asked if the BATFE ban would affect the Military. Short answer; NO. The Military gets what it wants, as a rule of thumb. And the ARMY is transitioning to a new, lead free round. M855A1, I believe. Sintered bronze bullet, IIRC. So the Military demand for M855 will drop to nothing soon.
Hold tight, Guys. This next year and a half will see attempts to destroy the Union from the inside out, it seems. OK, rant off.

 

[Tomegun2]

With reference to the Winchester .357 AP.

I still have a couple of boxes that my dad bought. We used to use it to bust old motors at his garage for entertainment. Bust a short block all to heck.

I'm saving them for special occasions.

I still have 1/2 a box. When it first came out I tried it in a 6" bbl. It would not penetrate a wheel rim, just left a dent, and it barely made it through one side of a pick-up bed. Didn't try it on a bare engine block though. If the engine was in a vehicle the projectile wouldn't make it to the block. I was disappointed after all the hype.

 

[firemedic911]

More is stock for less than .50 a rd

1000 rd case - 5.56 PMC X-TAC M855 62 grain Green Tip FMJ 5.56K LAP Ammo | SGAmmo.com

 

[DanP7]

Unacceptable

Further, any ambivalence from the gun-owning community is unacceptable regardless of your excuses.


I believe that 855 is far from ideal ammo, but it is relaible and inexpensive enough to suit many of my needs and I buy it over its closest substitute, the imported steel case garbage. However, we are seeing a net effect where the entire market is being disrupted by panicking individuals, me-toos, and profit driven speculators that reaches the entire .223/5.56 market. By the virtue of chicken little gun market economics, ALL 5.56/.223 is selling out, and will remain so like .22LR has done the past few years......

 

[Rick_A]

1000 rd case - 5.56 PMC X-TAC M855 62 grain Green Tip FMJ 5.56K LAP Ammo | SGAmmo.com

I wouldn't pay over 35 cents a round for any M855 or SS109, impending ban or not.

 

[AR-Getsome]

Unacceptable

Further, any ambivalence from the gun-owning community is unacceptable regardless of your excuses.


I believe that 855 is far from ideal ammo, but it is relaible and inexpensive enough to suit many of my needs and I buy it over its closest substitute, the imported steel case garbage. However, we are seeing a net effect where the entire market is being disrupted by panicking individuals, me-toos, and profit driven speculators that reaches the entire .223/5.56 market. By the virtue of chicken little gun market economics, ALL 5.56/.223 is selling out, and will remain so like .22LR has done the past few years......

I don't see anywhere online or locally 5.56 or .223 selling out. The xm855 can still be had locally where I live.

 

[MichiganScott]

I wouldn't pay over 35 cents a round for any M855 or SS109, impending ban or not.

Except it is already being sold for over $1.00/rd on Gunbroker. There is a profit incentive to buy low and sell high, particularly when it actually becomes banned.

 

[g27racing]

I don't see anywhere online or locally 5.56 or .223 selling out. The xm855 can still be had locally where I live.

The only stuff I can find (online/retail meaning not on auction sites) is the PMC. All the Federal stuff is sold out everywhere. I just spent 20 minutes looking and every place I found is sold out of Federal.

It is still quite plentiful on Gunbroker and the prices have already fallen back but eventually the supply will dry up and the price will rise.

Tell an American man he can't have something and he will want it that much more.

 

[g27racing]

I wouldn't pay over 35 cents a round for any M855 or SS109, impending ban or not.

As long as you are fine with not having any of the ammo, thats fine. If the ban goes thru which looking at the way it was worded, it looks to be a done deal, you won't ever see that ammo for that price again.

 

[AR-Getsome]

The only stuff I can find (online/retail meaning not on auction sites) is the PMC. All the Federal stuff is sold out everywhere. I just spent 20 minutes looking and every place I found is sold out of Federal.

It is still quite plentiful on Gunbroker and the prices have already fallen back but eventually the supply will dry up and the price will rise.

Tell an American man he can't have something and he will want it that much more.

Independence Ammo 5.56x45mm NATO 55 Grain M193 Full Metal Jacket Boat

Check on cabelas. They have tons of federal 5.56 and other brands of it. Midway USA, I could name a dozen more places.