New S&W 4566TSW Owner - Couple Questions

[Sevens]

Agree 100% that it reduces the "safety" of the pistol and admittedly it takes it outside of it's design. Many would argue that you should NEVER employ it in any manner of defense for the simple liability of having to explain (gasp!) that you willfully altered a safety feature.

-HOWEVER!-

Beyond that...
Are ya guys kidding with us here?
You cannot seriously believe this is dangerous... really?

You'd now have to decock the pistol in the same exact way you'd decock a 1911. Or any revolver or ANY semiauto ever built that has an exposed hammer and no decock lever of some sort.

A 3rd Gen with SA/DA operation and no decocker is not at all an "unsafe" handgun unless/until it is in the hands of a fool.

Anybody care to have an adult discussion on how some ADDED safety features incidentally promote POOR gun handling?

 

[18DAI]

A 1911 is designed to be carried cocked and locked. A 4566 is not a 1911. Thats one of the reasons I love the 4566.

I would never suggest to anyone that it is wise, or safe practice, to lower the hammer on a l911, with a loaded chamber, using your thumb and forefinger. IMO that is not safe gun handling and begging for a ND. IF you do that, you are not operating the gun as it was designed.

The 4566 was designed to use a decocker to safely lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. A 4566 is not a revolver. And I cannot think of a single DA/SA designed pistol that does not have a decocker incorporated to safely lower the hammer on a loaded chamber.

So put me on the list of those who SERIOUSLY thinks this is not only a bad idea, but right up near the top of the list of bad ideas. Good luck to those who operate handguns outside of their designed parameters or try to turn perfectly designed DA/SA pistols into 1911's. Regards 18DAI

 

[Sevens]

There is NO WAY to lower the hammer on a loaded and cocked 1911 without doing exactly that. You must defeat the thumb safety and the grip safety AND press the trigger.

On a double action S&W revolver -- once it is cocked, you don't even have the option of unloading it as you do with a 4566 or 1911. You must press the trigger and carefully lower the hammer.

 

[TTSH]

So put me on the list of those who SERIOUSLY thinks this is not only a bad idea, but right up near the top of the list of bad ideas. Good luck to those who operate handguns outside of their designed parameters or try to turn perfectly designed DA/SA pistols into 1911's.

There is NO WAY to lower the hammer on a loaded and cocked 1911 without doing exactly that. You must defeat the thumb safety and the grip safety AND press the trigger.

I've stayed quiet so far on the OP's rather dubious proposed mod to his 4566TSW... but I have to go along with 18DAI on this one point re: 1911's. I've never carried either of my 1911's, but I sure as heck wouldn't put them in (and carry them) in Condition 2. It seems like an ND just waiting to happen at some point.

Is it possible to do this safely? Of course it is. Is it a really good idea long-term? I don't think so.

 

[TexasG]

Agree 100% that it reduces the "safety" of the pistol and admittedly it takes it outside of it's design. Many would argue that you should NEVER employ it in any manner of defense for the simple liability of having to explain (gasp!) that you willfully altered a safety feature.



-HOWEVER!-



Beyond that...

Are ya guys kidding with us here?

You cannot seriously believe this is dangerous... really?



You'd now have to decock the pistol in the same exact way you'd decock a 1911. Or any revolver or ANY semiauto ever built that has an exposed hammer and no decock lever of some sort.



A 3rd Gen with SA/DA operation and no decocker is not at all an "unsafe" handgun unless/until it is in the hands of a fool.



Anybody care to have an adult discussion on how some ADDED safety features incidentally promote POOR gun handling?

Yeah, you talk like such an expert in the hobby. Instead of studying the manual of arms and the mechanics you ask for others input on altering the safety mechanisms of an excellently engineered and inherently safe pistol. As if somehow your interest in changing these features is justified because you hate the TDA design.

Then when confronted, you decide to that you want to have an adult discussion about safety features?

You epitomize all that most in our community and hobby disdain, and give the gun haters ever more fodder.

 

[rasmith3442]

Here's an idea

As usual, I agree with my friend 18DAI.

I am a mechanical engineer who does forensic engineering for a living. There are also several attorneys on the Forum.
If the OP would modify the gun, have an ND, and hurt or kill someone, the local prosecutor would eat him alive.

Currently there is a non TSW 4586 at Cherry's fine guns. Tag number is 34050SAL. They say it is NIB and it still has the round white inspection sticker on it.

http://cherrys.com/stokpics/34050sal.jpg

Why not become like the rest of us addicts and just buy more S&W's. Liability problem goes away, and you have another gun to appreciate in both the aesthetic and financial sense of the word.

Just my $0.02

S/F,

RAS (aka Walter)

 

[JohnHL]

Wow!
This thread sure got the old hens in the barnyard a cacklin'!

As I said in post #7: "Prepare for gasps of horror to follow."

And as Gary S said in post #8: Bring on the fainting couch!"

Nowhere in this thread has the OP or myself even suggested the carry of a pistol "cocked and unlocked".

In post #1 the OP states "this will be EXCLUSIVELY a RANGE GUN" (emphasis added).
It's the very first post, for gosh sakes!
You had ONE JOB!
To read AND comprehend the entire thread before commenting, and you failed.
Reading IS fundamental, girls.
The OP displayed an understanding of the mechanisms of this pistol and safe gun handling. That is why I felt confident in the sharing of knowledge with someone I judged to be a peer.
My intelligent and articulate friend, Sevens gets it and explained it perfectly.
And then Texas G mischaracterizes his post AND accuses him of authoring this thread. (Please read AND think before you type, Glen.)
It was MS88 who was the OP and a very reasonable and well worded question it was.
It was certainly NOT very welcoming to a new member for some of you to jump to conclusions and wrongly flame him without understanding his post.

I joined this forum because of what seemed to be an unusually large number of members who understood and appreciated the intricacies of these mechanisms and could discuss them like adults.
I realize that many of you are bewildered by all things mechanical and and you prefer the threads that say: "Here is my new gun. Isn't it pretty?" and then several people respond and say "I have one, too. Isn't mine pretty?"
And if that's your depth, I say "More power to ya!"
But if that is all I was interested in, I would have joined the Mattel Barbie Doll forum and not the Smith & Wesson Forum.

I think some of you owe the OP an apology.

Rant over.

John

 

[Sevens]

Yeah, you talk like such an expert in the hobby.

You epitomize all that most in our community and hobby disdain, and give the gun haters ever more fodder.

Good afternoon. Your insults are wildly off the mark and your comprehension approaches nil.

I have never, not even once, modified a S&W or -any- firearm with regards to it's designed features -- safety or otherwise.

You quoted my entire post and you didn't understand even a bit of it. You added insults and precious little else to the discussion.

 

[TexasG]

I stand by my written statements in this thread.

I have full comprehension of a all that was written.

You've been on this blog long enough to know that TDA should be left TDA and I expect that you wouldn't advocate making a 3rd Gen to an unsafe ***.

 

[oldandslow]

Greetings,

I have a number of 3rd gen. SW's including the 4566tsw. I also have a number of other brands including several CZ's which are DA/SA without a decocker and with a manual safety (like the 1911). These can be carried cocked and locked or hammer down on a loaded round.

The owner's manuals supplied with the non-decocker pistols (the 75B and 75B compacts and 2011 Rami) and also the on-line manuals both show how to safely decock the pistols from the SA mode to the DA/SA mode. Thus there is at least one major manufacturer who puts the manual decocking process in writing. I have decocked thousands of times with no problems.

This being said I still consider the standard decocker like on the SW 3rd gens (and Sigs and Beretta, etc.) safer than manual decocking and much prefer this setup.

best wishes- oldandslow

 

[M29since14]

The proposed mods are to be on a gun that will only be used for shooting at the range where there is no reason at all to decock or use any kind of safety. The OP seems to make that clear in his initial post. As long as the gun is used strictly in that setting, there is no increased risk at all, but outside of that setting I would want the gun returned to its normal configuration. I agree with JohnHL that the OP seems to understand those things.

 

[MS88]

I'm confused here. So these parts get installed in the slide, eliminating the decocker paddles. Ok, got that. Then the 4566TSW is STILL DA/SA??? How do you decock it after racking the slide to load it? With your thumb and forefinger letting the hammer down?

Or are you guys talking about carrying it around cocked and unlocked? What am I missing here? Thanks! Regards18DAI

I stated earlier in the Thread that this gun is EXCLUSIVELY for the Range. I don't even carry yet and when I do, it'll be with a smaller 9mm. I'll decock/unload it the same way I do with every other gun: point downrange, drop mag, rack slide.

Sounds like it 18DAI. I thought the mods would've already been all over this. Heck of a lot of liability to go around after the ND. I for one hope nobody's hurt, maimed, or killed.

I know the rules of gun safety, but thank you for the concern.

Agree 100% that it reduces the "safety" of the pistol and admittedly it takes it outside of it's design. Many would argue that you should NEVER employ it in any manner of defense for the simple liability of having to explain (gasp!) that you willfully altered a safety feature.

-HOWEVER!-

Beyond that...
Are ya guys kidding with us here?
You cannot seriously believe this is dangerous... really?

You'd now have to decock the pistol in the same exact way you'd decock a 1911. Or any revolver or ANY semiauto ever built that has an exposed hammer and no decock lever of some sort.

A 3rd Gen with SA/DA operation and no decocker is not at all an "unsafe" handgun unless/until it is in the hands of a fool.

Anybody care to have an adult discussion on how some ADDED safety features incidentally promote POOR gun handling?

Thanks.

 

[4506517]

Wow........

Did I accidentally logon to Glocktalk?

 

[JohnHL]

I've stayed quiet so far on the OP's rather dubious proposed mod to his 4566TSW... but I have to go along with 18DAI on this one point re: 1911's. I've never carried either of my 1911's, but I sure as heck wouldn't put them in Condition 2. It seems like an ND just waiting to happen.

I appreciate your post and respect your opinion.

I don't profess to be an expert when it comes to the Model of 1911, but no less an expert than Jim Wilson, writing in the March 26, 2015 edition of the American Rifleman had this to say about Condition 2: "I have found it to be the best way for me to prepare my 1911 for placing it on the nightstand at bedtime."

Your thoughts?

John

 

[JohnHL]

If the OP would modify the gun, have an ND, and hurt or kill someone, the local prosecutor would eat him alive.

Hi, Walter!

Thanks for you gentlemanly post.
In the interest of brevity and succinctness, I have edited it so that I might respectfully take issue with the substance of your comments.

This old saw has been circulating around the gun community for so long that people seem to accept is as gospel.

The actual fact of the matter is, if someone negligently shoots another person, modified gun or not, the shooter is, and should be, liable. (Just as if a person negligently ran over someone with their car.)
The only way a modified gun could damage the defendants case would be if the defendant fraudulently asserted that the gun went off without his control (i.e. that the gun was "defective").

IMHO that lie would be almost as bad as negligently shooting someone.

John

 

[MS88]

Thanks for everybody that helped me and confirmed my questions and ideas. I'll be ordering the parts today and I can't wait.

I'll also be removing the Mag Disconnect so I anticipate countless NDs at home and at the range.

Also, just got offered a 5906 today for my Taurus 990 so I'll be a proud owner of TWO Gen 3s in a very short period. Yay.

 

[GaryS]

You're just posting that to mess with people, aren't you?

You're turning your 4566TSW into a Glock!

Thanks for everybody that helped me and confirmed my questions and ideas. I'll be ordering the parts today and I can't wait.

I'll also be removing the Mag Disconnect so I anticipate countless NDs at home and at the range.

Also, just got offered a 5906 today for my Taurus 990, so that's TWO Gen 3s I get to love, appreciate and make 'unsafe'.

 

[TTSH]

I appreciate your post and respect your opinion.

I don't profess to be an expert when it comes to the Model of 1911, but no less an expert than Jim Wilson, writing in the March 26, 2015 edition of the American Rifleman had this to say about Condition 2: "I have found it to be the best way for me to prepare my 1911 for placing it on the nightstand at bedtime."

Your thoughts?

John

John - The exact quote you reference is as follows:

"While I don't know of any agency or defensive school that uses this as a carry method, I have found it to be the best way for me to prepare my 1911 for placing it on the nightstand at bedtime. I have to be fully awake in order to remember that I need to cock the hammer before investigating a possible threat that has awakened me."

American Rifleman | Conditions of Readiness for the 1911 Pistol

Read some of the on-line comments to the article and you'll appreciate a bit more of the safety controversy re: Condition 2. Would I do what he recommends and for the reason he says he recommends it? No. For a variety of reasons, it just doesn't apply to me and my situation. Not now, not ever.

Beyond that, I'm sorry I posted anything in this thread. I should have stayed the Hell out of it as my gut had told me. Live and learn.

 

[JohnHL]

John - The exact quote you reference is as follows:



American Rifleman | Conditions of Readiness for the 1911 Pistol

Read some of the on-line comments to the article and you'll appreciate a bit more of the safety controversy re: Condition 2. Would I do what he recommends and for the reason he says he recommends it? No. For a variety of reasons, it just doesn't apply to me and my situation. Not now, not ever.

Beyond that, I'm sorry I posted anything in this thread. I should have stayed the Hell out of it as my gut had told me. Live and learn.

Thank you for providing the exact quote, although I do not understand how the additional context changes the meaning of the sentence I posted.
Perhaps you will explain that to me.

And thank you for providing the link to the article. I'm sure others will also enjoy it.

I did read the comments and of the 6 posted, 3 did not address the issue, 1 clearly defended "Condition 2", 1 said the hammer could slip if "Done incorrectly", and the 3rd said it was "STUPID" (his capitalization, not mine) without offering any evidence to support his "argument".

Oft times, it seems "conventional wisdom" is no more than a fallacious or outdated piece of information (sometimes based on a modicum of fact) that has been regurgitated without question over a long enough period of time that it becomes accepted.

John

 

[gunhobbit]

Decocking the hammer will require you to press the trigger while lowering the hammer with your thumb.

While us revolver guys have been doing that since the late 1800's, it is kinda frightening to some people.

Those of us with CZ75s haven't been doing it for nearly that long, admittedly.

H'ain't shotted myself yet, though.