New S&W Revolver Prices Going Way Up

[stantheman86]

S&W will become Taurus' best salesmen......

Taurus will continue to churn out lesser quality but fully functional (mostly) versions of everything S&W and Ruger offer.

Want a S&W R8 but can't afford it? Taurus makes the 608, for $500 new.

Ruger Alaskan? Taurus makes a .44 large frame snub for half the price.

Higher prices will just drive new gun buyers to the lower cost manufacturers. Most people don't shoot enough to see a difference anyway. Lets face it the majority of new revolver buyers either want them for self defense/carry or as a "toy" that will come out maybe twice a year to shoot. Lots of people will balk at a $700 S&W J-frame and just get a Taurus 85 .357 and a couple boxes of ammo, shoot a few cylinders through it and carry it.

And S&W makes enough off their plastic stuff not to really feel the loss of some revolver sales.

As much as some may not want to admit it, by buying used you are not supporting S&W. many call themselves "die hard S&W fanatics" but have never bought a new one. S&W does not profit when you buy a used gun.

Those of you who won't buy a new IL and MIM Smith are missing out on some sweet shooting revolvers with some very nice actions out of the box.
Either support S&W or jump ship to another brand, the choice is yours. If you just buy used, then you are a fan of the bygone era of S&W. You aren't any part of the current company of S&W. over the years I have bought several new S&W's, I do not claim to be a die hard S&W fan, I also own Rugers and gasp! Even Taurus'. But I have given a few dollars of profit to S&W by buying new direct from a dealer.

 

[PA Guns & Ammo]

If indeed what has been said is true then let S&W suffer. Stick together and do not buy ANY new S&W firearm. We can give our business to their competitors. They have been having record breaking sales for the past 10 years and this is how they are going to treat their loyal customers by raising prices? Big corporate greed it seems. Hey S&W, if you are going to raise the prices at least do away with that stupid liberal lock! That is the LEAST you can do.

James

 

[AveragEd]

It would be hard not to believe that stocking dealer profit margins are shrinking at the same time suggested list prices are escalating. It happened in the car business.

Back in the late 1960s, dealer profit margin on new GM cars was between 17 and 25 percent, depending upon make and model. As the years went by, in order for their list price increases to appear smaller, GM added a percent or two to the sticker price and raised the dealer invoice price a percent or two, giving them the two to four percent increase they wanted without angering the buying public. Today, ten percent is about what your local dealer works with and I'll bet the margin on low-end econoboxes is even less.

Certainly a gun dealer's profit on used guns is higher than new ones. It's that way in the auto industry as well. If a prospective buyer wants a certain new car, he can compare prices at several dealerships and with today's "option package marketing," the same new car is probably in stock at the dealer down the street. And even if none of them have exactly what he wants, domestic cars and trucks are built to dealers' orders so the buyer can have the dealer order the exact vehicle he wants and be driving it in six to eight weeks.

But every used car is unique; even if you find two of the same model in the same trim level, color, interior and options, there are no two exactly alike in terms of mileage and overall condition. Accordingly, nicer used cars and trucks bring premium prices. Nicer used guns are no different.

It may turn out that buying a dozen or so pre-IL, pre-MIM S&W revolvers in like-new condition a few years ago was a wise investment. I'll have to show this thread to my wife!

Ed

 

[Dave T]

Either support S&W or jump ship to another brand, the choice is yours. If you just buy used, then you are a fan of the bygone era of S&W. You aren't any part of the current company of S&W.

Not switching to another brand. My choice is to be "a fan of the bygone era of S&W." Because, I don't want to be part of the current company. They quit making guns their long time fans and supporters like and want. They chose to leave me more than me choosing to leave them.

I'm loyal to the S&W that earned my loyalty. The company that made guns of steel and forgings. That fitted and finished them well and didn't include that (expletive deleted) IL. If they want my loyalty back, drop the IL and re-introduce a bunch of the discontinued models that built the company in the last century.

Dave

PS: I'm gonna go and calm down now. Play the guitar or something.

 

[PA Guns & Ammo]

Not switching to another brand. My choice is to be "a fan of the bygone era of S&W." Because, I don't want to be part of the current company. They quit making guns their long time fans and supporters like and want. They chose to leave me more than me choosing to leave them.

I'm loyal to the S&W that earned my loyalty. The company that made guns of steel and forgings. That fitted and finished them well and didn't include that (expletive deleted) IL. If they want my loyalty back, drop the IL and re-introduce a bunch of the discontinued models that built the company in the last century.

Dave

PS: I'm gonna go and calm down now. Play the guitar or something.

I agree. The vast majority of the customers who buy their revolvers probably do not want the IL there yet they continue to build them to appease certain politicians. Smith seems to be ignoring their customers which is the lifeblood of their business. It seems the bigger you become the more greedy you get. Now I understand why they went with MIM parts to keep the costs down and that makes sense but when you blindly stop listening to your customers it means your profits first over the customer. To me that is not a good combination. I was seriously looking to order a new 617 and wait for it but if this is indeed true, then I'm buying used.

James

 

[mg357]

I hope they don't raise there prices to high i am currently saving up for a new S&W Model 617 with a 4 inch barrel and if the price for one of them gets to high i will be in deep trouble.

 

[skrazo]

I agree. The vast majority of the customers who buy their revolvers probably do not want the IL there yet they continue to build them to appease certain politicians. Smith seems to be ignoring their customers which is the lifeblood of their business. It seems the bigger you become the more greedy you get. Now I understand why they went with MIM parts to keep the costs down and that makes sense but when you blindly stop listening to your customers it means your profits first over the customer. To me that is not a good combination. I was seriously looking to order a new 617 and wait for it but if this is indeed true, then I'm buying used.

James

Service and Quality are key factors in any business. I guess the question S&W should consider is: "Are there more potential customers who want 'quality' than those who just want 'cheap'"? (Most of the made in China "junk" is exactly that). Ahhhhhhhhhh..........I feel better now!

 

[rfuerst911sc]

Right or wrong today I went to the local gun show in search of a 66 or 66-1. None to be had. I'm no revolver guru so started looking at Taurus and Ruger. To my hand/eye Taurus is junk. I may be wrong but just didn't do it for me. Looked at a Ruger 101 and that felt/looked better but didn't make me reach for my wallet. Then came across a 686 + Talo and fell in love. Maybe to my newbie eyes/brain I don't know any better but she felt right in my hand and feels like a quality piece. Loved the wood grips and the satin stainless looked great. Yep it has a internal lock........big deal I'll choose to either use it or not. I am not turned off by a hole that is less than an 1/8th inch in diameter. I guess I'm not a purist when it comes to guns. I want it to go boom when I pull the trigger and I want it to do it each time I pull and I think this will. Have not gone to the range yet so maybe my tune will change. Price was $700.00, sure 500.00 would have been better but I think I got a decent price. Time will tell.

 

[Wheeler57]

I have enough revolvers to play with that I can afford to sit back for a while and not buy anything new.....
I just got done today putting Miculek springs in a used 10-14 I bought 3 years ago.....have hardly even fired that one.
I have been feverishly acquiring S&W and Ruger wheelguns for years as part of my compulsive OCD collecting shooting habits
Here's a thought , lets actually take time to shoot some of the guns we own

It would probably take more disposable income than I'll make in 5 years to buy enough .38 to really spend enough time shooting my favorite revolvers to get familiar with them...a lot of us spend so much time and money on the "next thing on our want list" that we don't enjoy the guns we already have.

^^ Guilty as charged

 

[BigBill]

I just got into s&w revolvers and collecting a few new or old it makes no diff to me lock or pre lock I could care less. I enjoy them all. Every time I pick a brand the cost seems to go up sometimes overnight. I seem to slow down on my purchases or end up moving on to another brand. When ruger discontinued the redhawks in 357 & 41mag I gave up collecting them. Years later I still wanted a larger frame 357 & 41magnum. The only choice I could see that was the best choice was the new s&w's even with the lock for $599/$699 they were worth it. I don't see anything that compares to the s&w n frame revolvers in either price or quality I think there unmatched. I'm a ruger guy for decades and jumped ship because of the availability of what I wanted. This time my feet are firmly planted in the s&w revolvers. I'm sticking to my guns and staying with s&w' s. Let say we're playing poker with Smith & Wesson and my chips are all in, I'm counting on s&w to keep the n frame revolvers coming. I'm making my list and checking it twice, 4", 5", 6", 6 1/2", 8 3/8", & 10 5/8" either way I'm hooked on s&w n frame revolvers. I'm sticking to my list and plans this time. If the cost goes up I'll just buy less often but my plan will be followed. I'm not going to dwell on the loc life is too short.

 

[stantheman86]

S&W needs to get in gear with their revolver catalog......and take a look at what Ruger and Taurus are doing. Ruger just brought out a match grade GP100 and a .22 SP101 that are going to be strong competitors to S&W's offerings.

Taurus just makes about 100 types of revolvers and sells them for half what a new Smith costs. Sure they aren't as good but most buyers look at price tags and if it goes bang they'll choose that over a Smith.

Charter Arms has a strong market in defensive lightweight snub revolvers, kind of an American Taurus.

S&W will just further lose touch with the revolver market by raising prices. Revolvers are hot right now because many new concealed carry permit holders are going for the simple, reliable wheelgun.

I also think Smith should pay more attention to their Classic lineup. It was a sad day when the 10 was dropped from continuous production and made a part of the Classic line. The 64 and 67 hold on due to Corrections and security contracts.

Smith should be moving forward with new models and competitive prices, bring back the $400 Airweight snub .38 with the S&W logo on it and they'll sell a ton of them again.

 

[shipwreck2]

Will most dealers lock in your price if your special order now? I have a few I wanted to order but I think it will be many months before they arrive.

 

[jfremder]

No. They don't have control over the prices. Ordering is kind of a misnomer. While dealers can place back orders with distributors, you are for more likely to actually get a hard to find item by looking online, searching the auction sites, or using a conglometor like
http://gunwatcher.com/c/113

 

[gnappi]

The fact that poly guns require no fitting or finesse to manufacture, and can be thrown together by unskilled workers makes them a very profitable center.

That reminds me of a quote from Wernher Von Braun (The father of rocket science) when asked what he thought about computers aboard spacecraft...

"Man is the most amazing computer and it's the only one that can be mass produced by unskilled labor"

 

[gnappi]

I was talking to my friend and stocking S&W dealer yesterday as he was working on firearms orders for 2014. S&W is raising the price on J frames $80 to $100 each.

I've noticed CRAZY high prices on used revolvers too. It seems like everything is getting collector pricing.

 

[ken158]

This means a quick jump in prices at the lgs on the used guns they have in stock. But I suspect they make 80% of the profit on new guns. How long do you think it will be before the prices on our own forum for gun sales starts going up.

I wonder if they cut the dealer margin on MSRP? I was told a few months ago what dealers pay for an average Glock and I think is was about $325.00 Anyone know for sure?

Anyone have an idea of what the markup is or was on a new 642? The webpage still shows a price of $459.00 but I think that is way out of date.

For me this would mean I will look at my wish list and buy sooner rather than later.

Of course you oldtimers had seen this before countless times.

When I was a dealer back in the day... distributor to dealer was 22% and dealer to retail was 22%. I would think it is still the same or close to those numbers.

 

[Knigge]

That will probably mean that spareparts will be more expensive, sad to hear since prices are insane over here already . $2000, for a new 686.

 

[photoman]

I saw the numbers on NICS checks the other day and it was amazing. Each month is higher than the previous month for many years now. Demand is at an all time high. Anyone that is shocked by higher gun prices is not in touch with the market.

Political instability will always lead to higher demand for guns which will always lead to higher gun prices.

 

[BJoe]

I saw the numbers on NICS checks the other day and it was amazing. Each month is higher than the previous month for many years now. Demand is at an all time high. Anyone that is shocked by higher gun prices is not in touch with the market.

Political instability will always lead to higher demand for guns which will always lead to higher gun prices.

That is part of it. Also consider that prices on pre lock S&W's are going up WAY faster than money markets are.

 

[shawn mccarver]

A few thoughts on this subject.

Distributors have told me that S&W has been concentrating production on M&P pistols and rifles and J frames, although the distributors say the J frames have been trickling in instead of coming in large batches as in years past.

The PC guns are being assembled on the regular production floor and have been for most of 2013. That one was confirmed at a meeting I attended in mid-2013.

They cannot satisfy demand for regular, cataloged models, yet the PC announces (admittedly on a locked video which was not supposed to have been released as it is only available if you have the web address - note the lock on the You Tube page, and the absence of the video from S&W's site) this ported N frame chambered in 9mm.

S&W is supposedly running three shifts and has been for most of 2013, and they still cannot produce enough guns to satisfy demand, despite the fact that they have more CNC machines under one roof (according to their own corporate statements) than any other manufacturer (not just any gun manufacturer).

Colt is on pace to almost triple its 1911 production this year, yet everything that comes in to a distributor is already sold against back orders. S&W, Springfield and others sell 1911s because Colts are not available. The current production Colts are exceedingly high in build quality and problems are almost non-existent, while their customer service is absolutely outstanding. If S&W prices do not remain under Colt, most customers will go ahead and wait for a Colt. Taurus will always have its followers as there is almost no quality product that can be made anywhere that cannot be made more cheaply with less quality than the original. All of Taurus' firearms are copies of those of other companies and they have made their fortune on copied firearms produced by cheap labor (the biggest cost to any manufacturer).

Ruger has no trouble attracting customers. Please note that a huge number of S&W mid-level managers and engineers have gone to work for Ruger, which accounts for much of the new "SR" line of defense-oriented firearms under the post-Ruger Family management at Ruger.

Were I at S&W, I cannot say I would not "cash-in" on the M&P pistol and rifle business. That is what they are there for is to make money for their investors. However, I would still produce the well-known revolver line - the J, K, L and N frames in at least large enough quantity that you would not have to go a year waiting for one.

As to revolvers, S&W's entire line is as unavailable as it was during the Viet Nam war and during the LE rush and the Dirty Harry rush of the 70s. That is dangerous ground as it was the unavailability of S&Ws in the first place that caused others to step in, most notably Ruger, with its Security Six and related products. Colt was already out or on its way due to mismanagement, which continued for decades.

Remember, if Colt had been more responsive to consumers with its 1911, Kimber, Springfield and the others would not exist.

I hope S&W does not follow the same self-destructive management decisions that caused the near-demise of Colt, and the rise of others to take its place. Colt has done remarkably well to hang on to some business, but it fights every day to even stay alive. Ruger has a far more diverse product line, but even Ruger has fallen victim to the times. Ruger's traditional double-action revolvers have been impossible to get during all of 2013. I recently received information that the Redhawk is being discontinued. Ruger has likewise focused on its polymer line of pistols and revolvers.

These are strange times, but lessons learned from the 60s and 70s should be heeded or times will get tough.

I remember when you could not get a stainless Chief's Special, a Combat Magnum, a 44 Magnum or a 357 Magnum (for those of you who came in late, I refer to the Model 27 class of gun) unless you also bought several J frames in 38 S&W and .32 S&W Long. Why those models were taking up production time and labor when absolutely no one wanted one is beyond me, but it is the same thing with these here-today, gone-tomorrow slab-sided, ugly PC models. I cannot give them away, and yet they are introducing new ones.

When production labor, and time and space is limited, I would hope S&W would do what it did to save itself throughout its history - return to its bread and butter models. Unfortunately, there must be crazy high mark-up or some reason why they build these PC models because it sure isn't sales numbers.