New York says "OOPS"

[Shinny]

Skinny, I am not saying to ignore laws we dont like...I adhere to a lot of laws I don't like...I am saying ignore laws that violate our constitutional rights and infringe on our second amendment, fact is...they should not be laws at all as they are trumped by the second amendment and our right to self defence. Somewhere we have to use common sence and we need to stand together.

Hopefully our coming together will defeat their infringement

ps. Thanks for your service

 

[Buffalohunter60]

I think we can defeat the infringement...in time...and thanks for your service...serving the public can be as dangerous at times as serving in a war zone.

 

[CoMF]

Until you are ever In a gunfight, don't judge those who have.

I normally "turn the other cheek" when someone responds to me like this, but I suppose I could take a few moments to address this post. Don't worry, I'll be civil.

Anyhow, I reserve the right to raise an eyebrow and voice my concerns when round counts in OISs are well beyond what was necessary to "stop the threat."

How many will YOU fire when you think you're about to die?

I can't say for sure, but I do feel that if I'm ever involved in a DGU scenario and I need more than the five rounds in my M36 and the speedloader on my belt to stop the actions of an attacker or attackers, I'm definitely in the wrong place.

And how will YOUR marksmanship be?

Too many variables there to give you any definitive answer on that other than I'd fall to the level of my training.

Your paper target at your range isn't trying to kill you.

Okay. And?

Or does your weekend at Blackwater and subscription to SWAT magazine make you a Navy SEAL?

Heh... You're funny. Sadly, I'm not a geardo or a Delta Rainbow Team Six wannabe. I'm a private citizen and make no attempts to present myself otherwise.

And the people hit by the cops at the Empire State Building were shot by FRAGMENTS, and none seriously injured.

Unfortunately, this statement is only partially correct. Three of those nine people sustained gunshot wounds while the remaining six were wounded by fragments. Also, if you want to be really snarky, I could pull out the Amadou Diallo shooting and ask how many shots were necessary to take out a suspect armed with nothing more than a wallet.

Bullets tend to fragment when they hit concrete, and there sure IS a whole lot of concrete on a Manhattan street.

What's that's old saying? One hit is firepower; a hundred misses are just noise? Or, in this case, collateral damage-causing shrapnel...

 

[CoMF]

Because I don't want to contribute to any illusion of this being a "cop-bashing" thread, I want to clarify that I don't have an axe to grind with law enforcement officers in general, especially ones who are opposed to this law in its entirety. I simply don't have any tolerance for hypocrites in any position of authority. I'm also well aware that not all LEOs in NY are complaining about how this law affects them and them alone, so I direct my contempt where it's appropriate, hence why I feel that hectoring Gov. Cuomo and Pat Lynch about their double standards is perfectly justified.

 

[Buffalohunter60]

I would not attempt to judge a man that is in a fight for his life. I have been in a life threatening situtation where I thought I was surely going to die...things slowed down...your vision and mind become focased and your mind works at warp speed.....if you panic, you will die...and you may die anyway. Your adrenulin is pumping...your strength increased to a level you never dreamed possible and all your survival skills kick into high gear. I was trapped underwater in a truck that slid off the road and flipped upside down in the winter time at a pond called beaver lake in 1972...thanks giving day at lost river near Lincoln NH. This all took place under water with three inches of ice on the pond. I never felt the cold at all, until after I was free.
I have been shot at and mortered in Vietnam and never experienced this kind of situtation where I was sure death was unavoidable. It is a miracle I survived at all and it took super human effort to extridite my self from a vehical where the roof was smashed into the dash at the center and I did not know where my next breath was coming from. Being a diver and able to hold my breath for a long time and not giving up...saved my life. I can only imagine being in a situtation were you are fighting for your life...run out of ammo and have people advancing on you trying to kill you would probably kick your body into the same mode. You will not be thinking about where the bullets went...only hoping you hit the target enough times to stop the threat to your life. I have only experienced this once in my life time and your mind is on just survival....nothing else...there is no time to think ...just react. Your mind will take over ...it goes on automatic survival mode.

 

[mkk41]

I've spent the last 20 years in one of the most violent cities in America. I've lost friends and colleagues shot on the job, killed in car wrecks on the job, stabbed etc. It's a choice of employment we all made. I simply ask now:

Is this a police bashing thread or one that allows us to shake our head at the silliness we call lawmakers at work? This is what they want, divide and conquer... Can we not turn on ourselves? It's time to Unite, not divide.

Just my $0.02

Not a cop bashing , merely a discussion , stating some facts of life.

Since the politicians are grandstanding on the shoulders of the Police Chiefs Assoc. It's been my opinion the many , not all , but many police chiefs cease becoming full-time cops and become full-time politicians. Especially in the big cities. In the nearest city to me , Philthadelphia , one of the deadliest , most corrupt (police and politician) cities , the Chief of Police continually says that civillians have no business owning or carrying guns. Yet they (Philly DA) routinely plea-out and release multi-conviction felons caught with guns. Philly PD is nationally famous for violating the rights of people with PA state issued LTCFs. Much like NYC , they think they should make their own gun laws , in violation of PA premption laws.

OTOH , I constantly run into some of the local small town Police Chiefs at local gun shops and even bought a few guns from some of them.

 

[mkk41]

No problem picking on "bad cops", but guys who fire off a magazine when they are about to be shot aren't "bad cops". They're guys who want to go home to their familes and have ONE SECOND to do what needs to be done, and they don't even know how many shots are even hitting the bad guy (if any).

Cops don't support this nonense. They would prefer that the DA's and the parole boards actually PUT bad guys away, rather than plea down everything they get. They know this new law won't make their job safer.

Since you're in PA also , you've got to hear the same stories I alluded to about Philly PD. Can't go a week without reading about one bad apple. Some of the bigger 'burbs are getting just as bad.

And as for the Navy , most sailors I knew would rat each other out quicker than quick if it got them off the hook.

 

[Shinny]

Since you're in PA also , you've got to hear the same stories I alluded to about Philly PD. Can't go a week without reading about one bad apple. Some of the bigger 'burbs are getting just as bad.

And as for the Navy , most sailors I knew would rat each other out quicker than quick if it got them off the hook.

I agree. We have laws on the books that would deal with these nuts, but they are plead down.
What I mostly agree with is Bad Cops suck!

 

[kbm6893]

I normally "turn the other cheek" when someone responds to me like this, but I suppose I could take a few moments to address this post. Don't worry, I'll be civil.

Anyhow, I reserve the right to raise an eyebrow and voice my concerns when round counts in OISs are well beyond what was necessary to "stop the threat."



I can't say for sure, but I do feel that if I'm ever involved in a DGU scenario and I need more than the five rounds in my M36 and the speedloader on my belt to stop the actions of an attacker or attackers, I'm definitely in the wrong place.



Too many variables there to give you any definitive answer on that other than I'd fall to the level of my training.



Okay. And?



Heh... You're funny. Sadly, I'm not a geardo or a Delta Rainbow Team Six wannabe. I'm a private citizen and make no attempts to present myself otherwise.



Unfortunately, this statement is only partially correct. Three of those nine people sustained gunshot wounds while the remaining six were wounded by fragments. Also, if you want to be really snarky, I could pull out the Amadou Diallo shooting and ask how many shots were necessary to take out a suspect armed with nothing more than a wallet.



What's that's old saying? One hit is firepower; a hundred misses are just noise? Or, in this case, collateral damage-causing shrapnel...

So you "feel" that you won't fire more than you need to and since you're a private citizen who does NOT run TOWARDS trouble, your opinion as to the hit ratio of cops is pretty useless. And i am SURE you would fire ALL 5 shots in your 36, as would ANYBODY. And if ONE of shose rounds misses and hits somebody else, we should lynch you, too? And I assume you think you're going to have the manual dexterity to dump those spent rounds and relaod that 36? Good luck with that.

As for those wounded by police gunfire, that is a shame, but blame the perp who iniates it, NOT the cops. Or should we blame our soldiers in Iraq or Afganhistan when they shoot a civilian caught in the crossfire?

As for the Diallo shooting, try to research a bit. The 4 cops involved fired 41 shots, about 10 each. Two of them had the Combat Cross for prior shootings, both against armed assailants. One enlisted in the USMC and served in Afghanistan and earned the Bronze Star. Diallo STRONGLY resembled a serial rapist when those decorated cops stopped him. Diallo stepped into his vestibule which was brick and had a light out. When the cops asked him to show his hands, he pulled out his wallet in that dark hallway. One cop yelled "GUN" and fired TWO shots while stepping back. He fell down the steps as he stepped back, landing on his butt and breaking his tailbone. The other three cops rightfully thought he was shot and opened up. The full metal jacket rounds we had went through him, hit the brick, and bounced BACK at them, making them believe they were being shot at. Whole thing was over in 9 seconds. So tell me, Oh Grand Wizard, how many shots will YOU fire when your partner yells "GUN" and falls down?

By the way, two years ago, an armed perp was shot 23 TIMES. He walked into court three days later.

 

[kbm6893]

Since you're in PA also , you've got to hear the same stories I alluded to about Philly PD. Can't go a week without reading about one bad apple. Some of the bigger 'burbs are getting just as bad.

And as for the Navy , most sailors I knew would rat each other out quicker than quick if it got them off the hook.

yeah, and cops would, too. But nobody steps forward until their own butt is in the sling. No different, really.

 

[riderrick65]

So let me get this straight.

The politicos in NY actually think that crooks using a gun in commission of a crime , and in the process are actually committing a FELONY , are only gonna load 7 rounds , because they don't want to in trouble by commiting a misdemeanor?

LMAO! What a bunch of bafoons in office in NY.

 

[Zackary]

They want to protect them from us. No. .. we want to protect us from them.

 

[Baddog]

Is there a way for the people of New York to appeal these laws?

I don't know but all working gun owners should move out of state and leave the place with nothing but non working takers.

 

[Freeway]

I don't know if it will have any effect, but another thread in this forum has some information about a repeal...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/2nd-am...s-repeal-new-gun-control-law-please-sign.html

 

[452x6]

RE

In a strange dramatic foreshadow the old term "NEW YORK reload" has just taken on new significance. If it's not legal to carry more than 7 rounds in a gun then just carry lots of guns!

Also, lets hope they eventually round all of those assault .22 squirrel rifles that have 14 round tube magazines. Can't be too careful with dangerous guns like that.

 

[chud333]

What did you expect from Cuomo and his cronies?
They don't think anything through.
Sad to think there are people who vote for this type.

Chuck

 

[gregintenn]

As for those wounded by police gunfire, that is a shame, but blame the perp who iniates it, NOT the cops.

I blame whoever fired the shot. My father always told me that any bullet I fired belonged to me until it came to rest. That's a pretty big responsibility.

 

[CoMF]

So you "feel" that you won't fire more than you need to

Because I hold the mindset that you shoot until the threat stops then escape to safety, but go on...

and since you're a private citizen who does NOT run TOWARDS trouble

Well, since I'm well aware I'm not in some live-action Hollywood action movie where the bad guys always miss the "hero," running headlong into danger wouldn't be my first instinct. I also think this stems more from common sense rather than the fact I'm a private citizen.

your opinion as to the hit ratio of cops is pretty useless.

I'm sure you feel that way. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

And i am SURE you would fire ALL 5 shots in your 36, as would ANYBODY.

Is that a fact? So it's a statistical impossibility that the attacker wouldn't be stopped by four fairly solid COM hits? Three? One from a psychological stop? What if he ran away as soon as he realized he'd be met by armed resistance?

Fire until the threat stops. It could be one shot, or ten, or none at all. No one can predict these things. What I do know is if I can't solve the "problem" and escape within the ten shots that I have, I'm beyond caring.

And if ONE of shose rounds misses and hits somebody else, we should lynch you, too?

Go right ahead. I'd man up and admit my mistake. If you wanted to file a civil suit against me, that's well within your rights also. I have a conscience and would feel terrible if I harmed an innocent person through my own negligence.

And I assume you think you're going to have the manual dexterity to dump those spent rounds and relaod that 36? Good luck with that.

I would fall to the level of my training. No more. No less.

As for those wounded by police gunfire, that is a shame, but blame the perp who iniates it, NOT the cops. Or should we blame our soldiers in Iraq or Afganhistan when they shoot a civilian caught in the crossfire?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying you couldn't care less about the potential liability and collateral damage caused by sympathetic reflex shooting? Also, with all due respect, that latter statement is a fatuous argument.

As for the Diallo shooting, try to research a bit.

I did. It was a shining example of flawed tactics (which, by the way, lead to a review by the NYPD if you had read the same Wikipedia article I have) and the dangers of sympathetic reflex shooting. Period.

By the way, two years ago, an armed perp was shot 23 TIMES. He walked into court three days later.

Normally, I'd ask whether or not the bullets had to traverse intermediate barriers, how far the bullets penetrated, where he was hit, etc., but I think we've diverged off topic enough already.

 

[kbm6893]

Because I hold the mindset that you shoot until the threat stops then escape to safety, but go on...



Well, since I'm well aware I'm not in some live-action Hollywood action movie where the bad guys always miss the "hero," running headlong into danger wouldn't be my first instinct. I also think this stems more from common sense rather than the fact I'm a private citizen.



I'm sure you feel that way. Thanks for sharing your opinion.



Is that a fact? So it's a statistical impossibility that the attacker wouldn't be stopped by four fairly solid COM hits? Three? One from a psychological stop? What if he ran away as soon as he realized he'd be met by armed resistance?

Fire until the threat stops. It could be one shot, or ten, or none at all. No one can predict these things. What I do know is if I can't solve the "problem" and escape within the ten shots that I have, I'm beyond caring.



Go right ahead. I'd man up and admit my mistake. If you wanted to file a civil suit against me, that's well within your rights also. I have a conscience and would feel terrible if I harmed an innocent person through my own negligence.



I would fall to the level of my training. No more. No less.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying you couldn't care less about the potential liability and collateral damage caused by sympathetic reflex shooting? Also, with all due respect, that latter statement is a fatuous argument.



I did. It was a shining example of flawed tactics (which, by the way, lead to a review by the NYPD if you had read the same Wikipedia article I have) and the dangers of sympathetic reflex shooting. Period.



Normally, I'd ask whether or not the bullets had to traverse intermediate barriers, how far the bullets penetrated, where he was hit, etc., but I think we've diverged off topic enough already.

Cops don't shoot and then escape to safety. They stay in the fight. What we pay them for and what we expect of them. If they do as you say, they shouldn't be cops.

Wikepedia is not a reliable source. It hardly qualfies as "research". Those 4 cops had over 1000 FELONY arrests between them. The reason for the shooting was the behavior of Diallo, an illegal immigrant who spoke little english who wrongfully concluded being stopped by the cops would send him back home, the lack of lighting in that vestibule, and the fmj ammo we had at the time. Ironically, the union had been yelling for hollow points for some time, but the job refused. right after Diallo, we got hollow points.

You say you're gonna hit 4 shots out of 5 COM in a self defense shooting when you think you're about to die? You're living in fantasyland. You're gonna dump in your pants and yank on that trigger.

You've never even had the POSSIBILTY of being in a shoot or no shoot situation, yet you feel qualified to pass judgement on guys who actaully HAVE? Seriously?

The 23 shot guy was hit at close range (less than 15 feet). No barriers between. Legs and arm shots, but nearly half were torso hits.

And sure, I care about the liability of where my shots go, just won't DURING the shooting, because the thought won't enter my mind, and it won't enter yours. That's why I won't shoot a gun in the woods where there isn't a proper backstop. But somebody points a gun at me? fire away. And accidentally shooting another person when you are using deadly force against somebody using it against you is NOT negligence.

 

[handejector]

The passage of this law is a truly sad state of affairs.

So is this thread.
I'm amazed and saddened that our combined anger leads us to turn on ourselves.
Are we THAT easy to manipulate?
Infighting is not our best course of action at the moment. Focus that energy toward the real problem, and be glad we have some LEOs who respect the 2nd.

You cop bashers who reach for every extreme case of poor performance at this particular time are guilty of bad timing at the very least, and are certainly not accomplishing anything positive for our legislative problems.