Over penetration and risk to bystanders

I carry a 44 special or a 45 ACP with fragmenting rounds because 44 and 357magnum in a SD situation in a crowded room could OP. I even carried Glazer rounds for awhile. You adjust to the environment you travel in. If in the wilderness with grizzly bear or mountain lion, 44 magnum is a good thing and OP is not an issue. It would be hard to fathom any jury or law enforcement holding a civilian accountable for OP when people are being hacked to death... but crazier things have happened. (There are insurance policies available to protect you from legal costs.) The potential lives saved makes me think, take the shot... but don't miss. It is a situation all of us should consider before having fractions of a second to make that decision. Perhaps some folks should consider not carrying if they can't answer this question.
 
Mass Ayoob was just covering this topic and said to take your shot low aiming up in case it goes through your target that hopefully it will continue up and over non targets. He explained it way better but that's what I got out of it.

The training I received instructed us to close in on the threat and angle the shot downward, (movie theater scenario.) Either one, angled up or down, it's good to have a plan ahead of time.
 
The comparison between the rifle rounds mentioned in some posts and any handgun round has no real value. Any rifle round has much more likelihood of much deeper penetration and exit from the target than does any handgun round. Yes, it can and has happened. But we must recognize the significant difference between rounds fired from a rifle and a handgun.

The greatest protection against over penetration is to actually hit a substantial portion of a body with your handgun. And yes, a potentially expanding bullet is a much better choice compared to an FMJ or round nosed lead slug for the kind of shooting being discussed here. On the other hand, lack of sufficient penetration is the most likely cause of failure to stop a predator, followed very closely by the lack of a bullet strike in the area with the most potential for maximum "stopping power".

We can either try to make the shot or we can stand by and wring our hands. In either case, we (hopefully) must live with the consequences of either choice. So we each must make our own choice!
 
While ballistic gel and human flesh are different, the use of bg to standardize testing is completely accepted. FBI penetration standards are minimum 12" and maximum 18". Most expanding ammo from a defensive handgun does right at 12"-14".

I worked at Barnes Bullets and we set up a chronograph on the far side of a 12" ballistic gel block. Most expanding defensive ammo of any caliber 9mm-45ACP will now perform similarly to meet the FBI specs. We shot some 9mm Barnes TAC-X (solid copper, expanding) bullets through 12" of gel. Those that exited after full expansion were traveling less than 300 fps max, most much slower. Since they were already expanded, penetration at that slow velocity would be minimal, or non-existent. This exit velocity is also decreasing very rapidly over a short distance. BTW, a 91 mph fastball is going about 200 fps, but the ball having greater mass retains more velocity and energy than a little bullet.

The fear of making a decent defensive shot, having the bullet expand, penetrate deeply enough to exit, and then travel further and have enough energy left to kill an innocent is so very remote that it is of no concern to me.

If someone is worth shooting because he is in the act of killing innocents, shoot the bugger. Call Masaad as an expert witness if you need to, but you won't.

Rastoff has it right--document a case of a common self defense bullet expanding, penetrating completely through the perp, striking and killing an innocent down range.

Not rifles, not dogs, not missed shots, not special angles up or down, just plain and simple defensive handgun bullet over penetrating causing death beyond the target. Even if there are one or two out of many thousands of such shootings, statistically, it is not a concern compared to watching a lunatic (man, woman or child) kill person after person.

This is, IMO, one of these "let's sell magazine articles and books" topics that in truth is a non-issue. Hypothetically possible, sure. Reality? Not.
 
Last edited:
For those who say that over-penetration is a big concern, please cite a case where it actually happened and an innocent was harmed.

The Kennedy Assassination

The first round that struck President Kennedy also struck Governor Connally . . .

I would contest that case as being an innocent, more like "two birds with one stone"

...calm down, it's just a joke :)

To the op,
Would you rather see the perp continue to kill or would you rather just pull out your CCW and stop the threat (especially if he pointed the gun at you or your loved ones). Either be situationally aware and get away or stop the threat.
 
Frangibles

Solving the non-problem of over penetration by using an inferior projectile that does not penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs evidences a lack of understanding of the requirement for penetration, with expansion, for relatively wimpy self defense handgun rounds to be effective.

Frangibles have been tested by major LE agencies and always found wanting. I don't know of any agency that puts lives at risk by using shallow penetrating bullets.

A majority of expanding handgun bullets shot center mass do not exit. Those that do pose little risk to humans beyond the target. Substituting a solution that makes a problem worse (stopping a threat) just doesn't make sense to me.
 
I thank you all who have put in your knowledge, experience, and opinions on this topic...

I raised this issue because I feel compelled to stop such an brutal and horrible attack. I am not LEO or Military trained/ experienced... I'm just one of the many citizens who believe "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing" So I enter this "calling" at a much greater disadvantage than those in professions that offer the needed training. I try to put myself in different scenarios and think them through.. and hopefully, it will make me more prepared if I'm ever in such a situation.

From what we've discussed here, I better understand the risk of over penetration, and can factor that realistically into this, and other, scenarios.

I hope those in the military or law enforcement, can appreciate how serious many of us take this responsibility. I've never faced a more serious decision than carrying concealed and the responsibilities / consequences involved. It is a lifelong endeavor of learning and training. We unfortunately, do not have easy access to the training we need. Forums like this, help fill this need.

Thank you again for your comments..
 
I think first you are not on guard to protect everyone if you are ccw even if people are being sliced up unless they are your family. Now if you feel threatened or are being threatened you will need to maneuver into a position for what ever it is your going to do. If they have a sword keep tables between you, throw a chair at him keep moving if he charges you shoot in defense but I don't think opening up across a crowded room a good thing even if people are being hacked.

Dave
 
I think first you are not on guard to protect everyone if you are ccw even if people are being sliced up unless they are your family. Now if you feel threatened or are being threatened you will need to maneuver into a position for what ever it is your going to do. If they have a sword keep tables between you, throw a chair at him keep moving if he charges you shoot in defense but I don't think opening up across a crowded room a good thing even if people are being hacked.

Dave

It is true there is no legal duty for a CCW to protect anyone. Carrying a gun for the preserving the life of innocents is a choice based on personal moral commitments. These vary from one person to another.

Under many circumstances it is wise to retreat and preserve life that way.

On the other hand, with good scenario based training and confidence in one's ability and equipment, going after a mass murderer is a justifiable decision.

Exact circumstances will never be the same. One must have the confidence to adapt and overcome if attacking is the choice.

New CCW'ers and those with insufficient training, lack of confidence, or a higher loyalty to one's own family, can live comfortably with their decisions not to engage.

It's a tough choice, and those who imagine scenarios and outcomes ahead of time are wise.

To FederalHST, good on you for thinking this through and asking for guidance. Unfortunately, there are some influential people in the gun community who prey on the negative legal aspects of self defense shootings. If you have a justifiable shoot and don't shoot your mouth off without an attorney present, you will most often be fine with the law. Bad shoot, though, and stupid misstatements afterward = different outcome. It does take time (years) to get enough knowledge and training to feel confident in your decisions.
 
In my limited experience, with a H&K USP 45 loaded with Speer 200 Grain Gold Dot JHP, pelvic shot, it penetrated 5" into the bad guy through two layers of denim and did not expand.
 
I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying that where ever I go, I'm sitting there at-ready to intervene in some incident that might happen. I'm being painfully honest to say, that I know I can sit here and "think" through scenarios, but in the actual situation, I don't know how I'll react or even if I will be frozen by shock and fear - there are so many possibilities I just don't know. I pray I can act correctly for the situation at hand if this ever does happen.

Thank you again everyone...
 
Last edited:
Warning on frangible. It acts like FMJ on anything except solid surfaces like rocks, metal... I've shot frangible through doors, pallets and we use it on deer hit by motor vehicles because it passes through flesh and bone and then breaks apart on the road surface.
 
You will miss more shots than you land. To worry about those shots that land on the intended target and the possibility of over penetrating is really putting the cart before the horse.
You're wasting your time considering what happens after you hit the bad guy, and not enough time practicing so that you actually will at all.
 
Years ago we loaded wad cutters in backwards.

Know what's behind your target. Size up the situation in milliseconds. You mind goes into the mode automatically. It's programmed to take over this is what we practice for.
 
As I was reading the OP, it brought to mind the movie U571.

Right before facing a dangerous enemy action, the guy put away his

wedding ring and wristwatch, "safe in his locker", or so he thought.

But, a few minutes later, his ship got sunk, and he lost everything,

by being careful, and doing what he thought would work out best.


My point here is- real life has a way of getting in the way of our

best plans. Figure out what you are going to carry, and don't over

think it.

However, carry what is legal in your state. In Florida, for instance,

everyone calls hollow-points "safety ammo" because they don't

easily over-penetrate. But in New Jersey, hollow-points are treated

like Satan's personal stash of "evil ammo", and God forbid they find

them in your gun. So you also have to be familiar with your local laws,

before you do anything rash.

My personal thoughts on the matter are that usually BGs, with intent to

do you harm, wait till you are in a deserted, empty place. They generally

don't attack you in a store, or crowded parking lot, with scores of bystanders

as a backdrop.
 
Last edited:
There is one point about penetration depth that hasn't been mentioned. Skin on the exit side of the body is equivalent to about 4" of penetration. If your 12" bullet hits a 9" thick section of bad guy it will probably be found just under the skin.


Misses are a serious concern, but the statistics offered are usually misleading. Tom Givens' students "have about a 95% hit rate in real shootings." The statistics we normally hear come from officer involved shootings and civilian and police shootings are generally different. Additionally outlier incidents can skew the numbers. For instance in 2011 the NYPD fired a total of 311 shots at subjects. 38% (118 rounds) of those were fired in two incidents. 31% of incidents involved only one round fired by the officer. Chuck Haggard states that "My job had at one point had a long string of OISs with 100% hits going. Since that time we've kept handgun hit rates up in the 70% range. But that doesn't fit the narrative. Another factor, pointed out in the Violent Encounters study, is that cops often start their gunfight by being shot, that kind of ****s with a guy's ability to make hits."

Tom Givens' interview is worth a listen.
NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report for 2011


Incapacitating a threat requires both shot placement and adequate penetration. Defending others from an active killer could easily involve a quartering or side shot. Train for minute-of-vitals accuracy and carry ammunition that meets the IWBA or FBI standards.


For clarity, the FBI 12-18" penetration requirement is in ballistic gelatin, NOT in people. There is no direct comparison between gelatin and people.
People show wider variations than gel, but there is a reasonable correlation.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2008/ps-sp/PS63-2-1995-1E.pdf
 
There is one point about penetration depth that hasn't been mentioned. Skin on the exit side of the body is equivalent to about 4" of penetration. If your 12" bullet hits a 9" thick section of bad guy it will probably be found just under the skin.

Absolutely accurate. Skin is very elastic and strong, like a trampoline mat. Bullets will penetrate to the skin, push it out away from the body by an inch or two, then the skin snaps back in place, holding the bullet just underneath.

The 18" max penetration in gel the FBI requires is just that--a maximum. It is a metric rarely achieved with an expanded handgun self defense bullet. FMJ or unexpanded bullets, yes. It is not the measurement ammo makers strive for.

The reliability of bullets to expand has increased with new designs, and the ability to retain weight after expansion for deeper penetration has also increased with bonding. Plain lead core/copper jacketed hollow and soft points of yesteryear perform poorly compared to newer designs of the past 15 years, expanding unreliable and failing to retain enough weight.

However, be wary of new magic bullets, especially if they fragment. Being small to begin with, bullets that do not retain their weight rarely have a component with enough mass to continue through to full desired penetration.

The goal of sufficiently deep penetration is to break bones, disrupt vital organs, cause bleeding AND to have enough mass and velocity left over to reach the spine and damage the central nervous system for an immediate stop. That's the almost unobtainable ideal that is unlikely because of a myriad of factors, but the FBI's penetration requirements reflect this potential.

The rest of V0OBWxZS16's post is also spot on. Thanks for the specific references.
 
As stated above, if you are shooting in the direction of multiple bystanders, then you have a lot more problems than over penetration. You are better firing at an angle clear of bystanders, notwithstanding further opportunity by the assailant lest you end up his cellmate. Even if you are vindicated, the taking of an innocent life, and civil suit, no matter what your intent will be with you always.
 
Last edited:
Can anyone cite a legal precedent where a shooter was jailed, sent to prison, fined for using an over penetrating bullet?
 
Interesting article with some anecdotal info on penetration.

Have No Faith in Your Defensive Handgun Caliber or Load

Basically, non-expanding pistol bullets can over penetrate, resulting in danger to those beyond.

Expanded bullets rarely over penetrate and even more rarely pose any serious threat beyond the target.

FBI tests include bullets passing through layers of clothing (but not skin) before measuring penetration in gel. None of the tests show the end of the penetration potential with elastic skin and two more layers of clothing intervening before the expanded bullet flies free.

IOW, negligible danger down range.
 
For clarity, the FBI 12-18" penetration requirement is in ballistic gelatin, NOT in people. There is no direct comparison between gelatin and people.

Actually, that is totally false. Ballistic gelatin was formulated to correlate nearly exactly with human flesh. That's why it is was developed and used. However the fact that it is just like flesh without bones, cartilage, ligaments, tendons and organs, does mean that the penetration won't be the same as shooting a person or an animal. But it does do a reasonable simulation of soft tissue.
 
There are risks to everything, and I won't go changing my ammunition because of a negative possibility that is outweighed by positive attributes that are much more likely.

That said, I am aware of two shootings on my department that involved 9mm 147gr Ranger-T ammunition penetrating the torso of the suspect and causing injury to a deputy on the other side.

Thus, as we state in our 4th rule of basic firearm safety... One must be aware of their target, backstop, and beyond. We must be aware, and should try to take steps to mitigate the potential for over-penetration, but it doesn't mean that we let ourselves die or let others die because someone might get hurt or die.

Tough decisions come with the territory.
 
Back
Top