Over penetration and risk to bystanders
- Thread starter FederalHST
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FederalHST
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I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying that where ever I go, I'm sitting there at-ready to intervene in some incident that might happen. I'm being painfully honest to say, that I know I can sit here and "think" through scenarios, but in the actual situation, I don't know how I'll react or even if I will be frozen by shock and fear - there are so many possibilities I just don't know. I pray I can act correctly for the situation at hand if this ever does happen.
Thank you again everyone...
Thank you again everyone...
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Granite Stater
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Warning on frangible. It acts like FMJ on anything except solid surfaces like rocks, metal... I've shot frangible through doors, pallets and we use it on deer hit by motor vehicles because it passes through flesh and bone and then breaks apart on the road surface.
You will miss more shots than you land. To worry about those shots that land on the intended target and the possibility of over penetrating is really putting the cart before the horse.
You're wasting your time considering what happens after you hit the bad guy, and not enough time practicing so that you actually will at all.
You're wasting your time considering what happens after you hit the bad guy, and not enough time practicing so that you actually will at all.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
Years ago we loaded wad cutters in backwards.
Know what's behind your target. Size up the situation in milliseconds. You mind goes into the mode automatically. It's programmed to take over this is what we practice for.
Know what's behind your target. Size up the situation in milliseconds. You mind goes into the mode automatically. It's programmed to take over this is what we practice for.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
I load this Speer 200gr JHP soup bowl bullet pumped to the max after seeing a guy gut shot five times with a 45acp and live.
As I was reading the OP, it brought to mind the movie U571.
Right before facing a dangerous enemy action, the guy put away his
wedding ring and wristwatch, "safe in his locker", or so he thought.
But, a few minutes later, his ship got sunk, and he lost everything,
by being careful, and doing what he thought would work out best.
My point here is- real life has a way of getting in the way of our
best plans. Figure out what you are going to carry, and don't over
think it.
However, carry what is legal in your state. In Florida, for instance,
everyone calls hollow-points "safety ammo" because they don't
easily over-penetrate. But in New Jersey, hollow-points are treated
like Satan's personal stash of "evil ammo", and God forbid they find
them in your gun. So you also have to be familiar with your local laws,
before you do anything rash.
My personal thoughts on the matter are that usually BGs, with intent to
do you harm, wait till you are in a deserted, empty place. They generally
don't attack you in a store, or crowded parking lot, with scores of bystanders
as a backdrop.
Right before facing a dangerous enemy action, the guy put away his
wedding ring and wristwatch, "safe in his locker", or so he thought.
But, a few minutes later, his ship got sunk, and he lost everything,
by being careful, and doing what he thought would work out best.
My point here is- real life has a way of getting in the way of our
best plans. Figure out what you are going to carry, and don't over
think it.
However, carry what is legal in your state. In Florida, for instance,
everyone calls hollow-points "safety ammo" because they don't
easily over-penetrate. But in New Jersey, hollow-points are treated
like Satan's personal stash of "evil ammo", and God forbid they find
them in your gun. So you also have to be familiar with your local laws,
before you do anything rash.
My personal thoughts on the matter are that usually BGs, with intent to
do you harm, wait till you are in a deserted, empty place. They generally
don't attack you in a store, or crowded parking lot, with scores of bystanders
as a backdrop.
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V0OBWxZS16
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There is one point about penetration depth that hasn't been mentioned. Skin on the exit side of the body is equivalent to about 4" of penetration. If your 12" bullet hits a 9" thick section of bad guy it will probably be found just under the skin.
Misses are a serious concern, but the statistics offered are usually misleading. Tom Givens' students "have about a 95% hit rate in real shootings." The statistics we normally hear come from officer involved shootings and civilian and police shootings are generally different. Additionally outlier incidents can skew the numbers. For instance in 2011 the NYPD fired a total of 311 shots at subjects. 38% (118 rounds) of those were fired in two incidents. 31% of incidents involved only one round fired by the officer. Chuck Haggard states that "My job had at one point had a long string of OISs with 100% hits going. Since that time we've kept handgun hit rates up in the 70% range. But that doesn't fit the narrative. Another factor, pointed out in the Violent Encounters study, is that cops often start their gunfight by being shot, that kind of ****s with a guy's ability to make hits."
Tom Givens' interview is worth a listen.
NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report for 2011
Incapacitating a threat requires both shot placement and adequate penetration. Defending others from an active killer could easily involve a quartering or side shot. Train for minute-of-vitals accuracy and carry ammunition that meets the IWBA or FBI standards.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2008/ps-sp/PS63-2-1995-1E.pdf
Misses are a serious concern, but the statistics offered are usually misleading. Tom Givens' students "have about a 95% hit rate in real shootings." The statistics we normally hear come from officer involved shootings and civilian and police shootings are generally different. Additionally outlier incidents can skew the numbers. For instance in 2011 the NYPD fired a total of 311 shots at subjects. 38% (118 rounds) of those were fired in two incidents. 31% of incidents involved only one round fired by the officer. Chuck Haggard states that "My job had at one point had a long string of OISs with 100% hits going. Since that time we've kept handgun hit rates up in the 70% range. But that doesn't fit the narrative. Another factor, pointed out in the Violent Encounters study, is that cops often start their gunfight by being shot, that kind of ****s with a guy's ability to make hits."
Tom Givens' interview is worth a listen.
NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report for 2011
Incapacitating a threat requires both shot placement and adequate penetration. Defending others from an active killer could easily involve a quartering or side shot. Train for minute-of-vitals accuracy and carry ammunition that meets the IWBA or FBI standards.
People show wider variations than gel, but there is a reasonable correlation.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2008/ps-sp/PS63-2-1995-1E.pdf
Absolutely accurate. Skin is very elastic and strong, like a trampoline mat. Bullets will penetrate to the skin, push it out away from the body by an inch or two, then the skin snaps back in place, holding the bullet just underneath.
The 18" max penetration in gel the FBI requires is just that--a maximum. It is a metric rarely achieved with an expanded handgun self defense bullet. FMJ or unexpanded bullets, yes. It is not the measurement ammo makers strive for.
The reliability of bullets to expand has increased with new designs, and the ability to retain weight after expansion for deeper penetration has also increased with bonding. Plain lead core/copper jacketed hollow and soft points of yesteryear perform poorly compared to newer designs of the past 15 years, expanding unreliable and failing to retain enough weight.
However, be wary of new magic bullets, especially if they fragment. Being small to begin with, bullets that do not retain their weight rarely have a component with enough mass to continue through to full desired penetration.
The goal of sufficiently deep penetration is to break bones, disrupt vital organs, cause bleeding AND to have enough mass and velocity left over to reach the spine and damage the central nervous system for an immediate stop. That's the almost unobtainable ideal that is unlikely because of a myriad of factors, but the FBI's penetration requirements reflect this potential.
The rest of V0OBWxZS16's post is also spot on. Thanks for the specific references.
HOUSTON RICK
Member
As stated above, if you are shooting in the direction of multiple bystanders, then you have a lot more problems than over penetration. You are better firing at an angle clear of bystanders, notwithstanding further opportunity by the assailant lest you end up his cellmate. Even if you are vindicated, the taking of an innocent life, and civil suit, no matter what your intent will be with you always.
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Interesting article with some anecdotal info on penetration.
Have No Faith in Your Defensive Handgun Caliber or Load
Basically, non-expanding pistol bullets can over penetrate, resulting in danger to those beyond.
Expanded bullets rarely over penetrate and even more rarely pose any serious threat beyond the target.
FBI tests include bullets passing through layers of clothing (but not skin) before measuring penetration in gel. None of the tests show the end of the penetration potential with elastic skin and two more layers of clothing intervening before the expanded bullet flies free.
IOW, negligible danger down range.
Have No Faith in Your Defensive Handgun Caliber or Load
Basically, non-expanding pistol bullets can over penetrate, resulting in danger to those beyond.
Expanded bullets rarely over penetrate and even more rarely pose any serious threat beyond the target.
FBI tests include bullets passing through layers of clothing (but not skin) before measuring penetration in gel. None of the tests show the end of the penetration potential with elastic skin and two more layers of clothing intervening before the expanded bullet flies free.
IOW, negligible danger down range.
flintsghost
Member
Actually, that is totally false. Ballistic gelatin was formulated to correlate nearly exactly with human flesh. That's why it is was developed and used. However the fact that it is just like flesh without bones, cartilage, ligaments, tendons and organs, does mean that the penetration won't be the same as shooting a person or an animal. But it does do a reasonable simulation of soft tissue.
HOUSTON RICK
Member
The odds of criminal prosecution pale in comparison to the odds of a ruinous civil suit.
Rastoff
US Veteran
True, but point to a case where someone was ruined by said civil suit because of an over-penetrating round.
SoCalDep
Member
There are risks to everything, and I won't go changing my ammunition because of a negative possibility that is outweighed by positive attributes that are much more likely.
That said, I am aware of two shootings on my department that involved 9mm 147gr Ranger-T ammunition penetrating the torso of the suspect and causing injury to a deputy on the other side.
Thus, as we state in our 4th rule of basic firearm safety... One must be aware of their target, backstop, and beyond. We must be aware, and should try to take steps to mitigate the potential for over-penetration, but it doesn't mean that we let ourselves die or let others die because someone might get hurt or die.
Tough decisions come with the territory.
That said, I am aware of two shootings on my department that involved 9mm 147gr Ranger-T ammunition penetrating the torso of the suspect and causing injury to a deputy on the other side.
Thus, as we state in our 4th rule of basic firearm safety... One must be aware of their target, backstop, and beyond. We must be aware, and should try to take steps to mitigate the potential for over-penetration, but it doesn't mean that we let ourselves die or let others die because someone might get hurt or die.
Tough decisions come with the territory.
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