Over pressure "proof" loads?

[Exmilcop]

Putting it out there, but does any one know definitively if S&W did over-proof testing of their firearms? I know the brits used to fire an over pressure round by as much as 25% to "prove" the firearms and them stamp them as such. The reason I ask is I'm getting into reloading pistol for the first time and it's an antique S&W DA in .44 Russian. I've been avidly following all the threads on reloading for this round and picked up tons of information (thank you all very much), but I've never seen the issue of factory testing addressed.

 

[stansdds]

I'm sure they do when developing new firearms, but to proof load every firearm before it ships, don't know.

 

[murphydog]

There was a recent post stating the factory had done destructive (burst?) pressure testing on cylinders in the 1930s, but my guess is that may be done in the modern era at the time of design engineering or with a computer and that is that.

Back in the 19th century it was probably done, but those thrifty Yankees probably didn't blow up a lot of guns just for testing's sake, and definitely don't do it with your .44 DA.

 

[2152hq]

US gun companys in the 70's ran their complete assembled firearms through their "range" which included a proof round (or rounds in a revolver) followed up by function testing with standard comercial ammo.
Most also ran a few rds thru each to target the sights on to paper.

The 'proof rounds' were commercialy mfg'd ammo from usually Remington from what I saw.
I'm sure other mfg'rs of ammo also made such rounds.
Specially packaged as Over-Pressured Proof Test Ammo, the cases were usually nickel. The bullet and sometimes the case head were a brite blue color.
This color I think was an old system of marking for a Proof Round which I was told is where the term Blue Pill Load (Proof Load) came from.

I never worked in a factory that mfg'd revolvers but did work at a custom gun operation with a man that had worked at Colt's Rockyhill plant in their range in the early 70's.
His job was mostly proof, function and targeting revolvers.
One proof rd in the cylinder and 5 standard rds were the general way to test for those issues. A reload of 5 or 6 and then fired on paper for 'accuracy' and sight adj (if it had them). That target was supposed to be pulled and signed & dated by the Range person and included in with the pistol.

As always,,things are not always as they appear...
When it was a slow,,extra targets were fired with a Range Revolver.
Those targets were then used when the Range was busy to just sign them and throw them in the box with the revolvers coming thru the range at the time.
The VP mark (Colt Proof) was stamped in the range on the way through.

Marlin firearms got a proof round followed by 3 to 5 function rds. Then over to the targeting guys to put them on paper.
No signed targets there.
When times were busy at MArlin,,the carts of 30 guns were pushed into the range, a Proof mark (JM) quickly stamped on each as they still sat on the cart,,then wheeled right back ot and down to packing & shipping.
They never saw a proof or function rd.
That didn't happen often,,but it did happen.

It's just the way factorys operate.

There is no and never has been any Gov't demanded gun proof in the USA. The gun companys do so to protect themselves or for marketing hype.

European gun companys often work under Gov't demanded proof laws.
Englands go way back,,The rest of Europe started around the early 1890's.

English proof of revolvers used to demand a proof round in each chamber of the cylinder. More recent changes to the Proof Law have knocked it down to every other chamber. Two none adjacent chambers on a 5 shot cylinder IIRC.

European countries & England do not recognize the USA gun co proofing.
So any USmade firearm that ends up in those places must be Gov't proofed and marked before they can be commercially sold.
Re-proofing is also demanded in those countries when certain gunsmithing operations have been done.

 

[Duckford]

Keep in mind that the Proof Load is intended for rare testing of a firearm, never for a diet of them. Many firearms would self destruct if given too many of them, depending on the individual gun and its metals, as well a the cartridge. But a sure way to blow up a firearm is to feed it a steady diet of over pressure cartridges. Remember that many revolvers you will see blown to pieces in real life, and on the internet in pictures, didn't blow up from one hot load, but often many rounds of abuse and hotloading over a period of time.

"Buh if they can shoot one over pressure test load in it once, it must mean the gun can handle a steady diet of those rounds for a lifetime of use" is the logic of fools. Such reasoning, along with "Buh this gun is stronger than most for the caliber" has lead to many a tragedy. Light smokeless in blackpowder guns that got too hot, hotloading of "tough as a tank" revolvers of modern steel and manufacture.

Sometimes the smartest reloader is the guy who knows he is stupider than the reloading book.

If in doubt, water down the load to the lowest safe pressure level. ALWAYS. If in doubt, always buy the least powerful and firearm type factory ammunition possible, ALWAYS. Too many firearms have been destroyed and too many folks have been hurt pushing limits, especially old blackpowder firearms of all types.

If you can't find anything on the firearm that suggests it was ever INTENDED for smokeless, then DON'T USE SMOKELESS POWDER. Even if old seasoned handloaders have said once and a while they might load this blackpowder gun with very light smokeless handloads, that is a risk for old greybeards and not for new handloaders who have a far better idea of the weapon and powders they use.

If there is no smokeless proof mark, don't load smokeless.

And most of all, to cap this off, ANYBODY WHO GIVES YOU BAD RELOADING INFORMATION ON THE INTERNET, GIVES YOU A HOTLOAD THAT BLOWS YOUR GUN UP AND MAIMS YOU, WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE AND WILL NOT REMOVE A TROPSTRAP FROM YOUR CHIN OR REPLACE YOUR OLD 44 RUSSIAN IF IT GGOES KABLOOEY.

Stated for public purposes, in a public forumb.

 

[shil]

I am reminded of days of yore when thousands of surplus .455 Webley revolvers were imported. One issue: NO AMMO! The enterprising importers had the guns' cylinders milled to accept the readily-available .45 ACP round, of which I'm sure readers are aware. The .455 Webley round: 13,000 psi. The round, if overloaded by 25% for proof purposes: 16,250 psi. The .45 ACP: 21,000 psi. Those were simpler times! I wonder how long Webleys lasted at 21,000 psi?

 

[2152hq]

Surprising, The Webleys endure the 45acp ammo quite well.
Even the lesser Mk editions, some of which were never Nitro proofed at all.

But they have been known to blow a cylinder now and again using 45acp ammo.
Some will say it was just an bad reloaded round, which it may have been the cause.
But the fact still remains that most over the counter 45acp ammo pressure runs outside of what the 455 was loaded for in the breaktop Webleys.

It used to be that replacement cylinders in 455 for the MkVI at least were some what available if you did a little looking around.
Now they are really tough to find, even a shaved one.
The top strap usually takes a beating to in one of those unfortunate disasters. A bbl assembly is another part hard to find.

But the revolvers were $12 to $15 back when they were first imported in quantity in the 50's and early 60's and the off-site lathe mechanics did their thing and converted most all of them.

FWIW, re: damascus bbls. Though the argument still goes back and forth in the US about their strengh and ability to be used with smokeless powder and for some their use at all even with BP loads..
In England, Damascus, LAminated and Twist steel bbls are treated no different from steel bbls.
Those guns fitted with them must go thru Gov't mandated proof. The guns are fed the same proof rounds and given the same inspection pre and post firing that any other firearm is given.
No special low pressure Proof rounds for the Damascus guns.
They receive the same proof marks as any other.
Age of the gun makes no difference.

The Proof round is in no way meant to destroy or blow up the firearm it is fired in.
The Proofing consists of a pre firing examination and measurements.
The gun can fail right here if certain things are not right ( breeching, headspace, ect)
Then the actual proof firing.

After proof firing another examination and measurments This is the 'View Proof' in England (Crown/V)
If certain measurements when compared to the first set done before the firing are outside what is acceptable,, the gun fails.
Chamber expanding, bbl expanding, loose breech, headspace now outside spec, ect..

If it passes, it gets it's full set of Proof marks.

It is very rare that a proof round firing actually 'blows up' the gun in test.

US mfg's do not do any pre measurements or post fireing measurements that I have ever seen or heard about in normal Range testing/proof of production guns.
The proof rd followed quickly by function rds and then by some, a number of rds to 'target' the gun on paper.

In this, the factory is only interested in wether the proof rd actually does blow the gun up. Not wether the proof rd may have loosened the breech lock up or placed the head space out of spec.

If such had been done, a small number of 336 Marlins would have never gone out of the factory back in the late 60's/early 70's with severely compromised locking bolts and headspace issues.
That would have been caught by such a 'View Proof' process.
Instead it was caught by a couple of customers in the way of a bolt in their face and severe eye, facial & hand damage.
One assembler on the 336 line decided he could do better on piece work by cutting the locking bolts by eye and not use the fixture provided.

A few were cut wildly out of spec. Yes they held through the range session but not for much more and the customer(s) found out how much more unfortunetly.

There is a good reason the Proofing system is set up the way it is.

 

[shil]

Great info, 2152. Thanx!