+P in old Model 36?

[BabaBlueJay]

I am looking into some Buffalo Bore for defensive ammo for my Chief. I plan to mostly use their low flash standard pressure stuff because my gun is not rated for +P. That being said, I really enjoyed shooting their heavy outdoorsman hard cast in 357 for bear rounds as where I live we have tons of Black Bear. Would shooting a small amount of +P hard cast destroy the gun or I could I get away with shooting 5 every now and again and using it while camping?

I am assuming it would be fine as its a steel revolver and guns only recently started getting +P rating in 1999, but just wanted to do my due dilligence.

 

[armorer951]

How "old" is the question.

Smith and Wesson's guidance is if it says ".38 +P" on the barrel, then the gun is rated for commercial +P ammunition. Check your owner's manual under "Ammunition".

I believe many here on the forum regularly use +P rated commercial ammunition in their currently produced J frames without incident.


Owner's manual......

•""Plus-P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics and may result in the need for more frequent service."


From an armorer's perspective, and since the terminal ballistic differences/gains from +P ammunition are minimal out of short barrel J frames, I would forgo the higher pressure ammunition.
Just my opinion though.....it's your gun.

Carter

 

[murphydog]

You mention BB .357 hard cast loads but using their load in your model 36?

I would recommend using the gun model mentioned within your member name if the threat of a bear encounter is high. Handles full power .357 and much easier to control multiple rapid shots.

 

[rct269]

I will suggest you have a look at the ballistic tables published from back in the day BEFORE the performance of the loads was reduced. (I have some tables from the 1920's---and they are VERY interesting!) For the sake of apples to apples, look at the performance of the regular, everyday 158 grain bullet load (or whatever the bullet weight is). For the sake of avoiding arguments, just keep it at that. Now look at the tables for today's +P load---the same load. Note the minuscule difference. There are most certainly some hot (or at least somewhat warm) +P loads using lighter weight bullets, but remember---apples to apples.

So, what's this +P business all about---why did they come to be? Let me again "suggest" they came about in an effort to increase (INCREASE, as in +) the profit margins of those who make them---answering the question of "What can we do to increase our profit margins?" The answer was very likely along these lines: "Well, there's a large, and growing number of folks buying guns for personal defense----the numbers of carry permits are going through the roof---how about we increase the performance of the loads back to about what they were before we reduced them, and give them a catchy name----+P---P for performance?" "You think that might work?" The man at the head of the table then said, "You know, that just might work!" And sure enough, it worked!

AND, in the food for thought department, do you think (even for a split second) the ammo folks are going to produce a load for ANY gun ever built that will even come close to damaging the gun---never mind the shooter? I can see the plaintiff's bar just drooling at the prospect of that!! I can see it now: "CALL 1-800 BAD AMMO. You pay nothing unless we win your lawsuit."

Now, what was your question again?

Ralph Tremaine

OH!! I almost forgot!! Let's talk about guns "rated for +P". Can you think of a better way to increase the sale of guns? It's a match made in heaven----money-money-money----------------that which used to be your money-----and is now THEIR money!!!

 

[Pisgah]

+P will not destroy your gun. Shooting it continuously will wear it out faster than standard-pressure stuff, but there'll be no blow-up. So, sure, you can shoot a few and carry a cylinder-full -- but you may decide that the well-proven standard pressure loads may be good enough without the extra abuse to hand and gun. Me? I usually carry standard-pressure .38s in a .357 snub...

 

[BabaBlueJay]

You mention BB .357 hard cast loads but using their load in your model 36?

I would recommend using the gun model mentioned within your member name if the threat of a bear encounter is high. Handles full power .357 and much easier to control multiple rapid shots.

That's true if I am out camping I usually have my 686 on me. Valid point

 

[luvsmiths]

Todays Plus P was yesteryear's mild load.

 

[rct269]

Todays Plus P was yesteryear's mild load.

That there is a man of few words!

Me---I'm prone to run on---and on!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[MetalMan]

"Rule of thumb" is that any S&W revolver marked with a model number is safe for +P ammunition in moderation…just not a steady diet.

 

[luvsmiths]

That there is a man of few words!

Me---I'm prone to run on---and on!

Ralph Tremaine

The "P" in +P?

PROFIT- not "performance"!

 

[Pisgah]

A minor bit of Elmer Keith lore. He once put thousands of .38 Heavy Duty rounds through a Chief's Special over a period of several months. That stuff was loaded at mid-range .357 pressures, 'way more than any +P, and the little gun showed no measurable wear.

Not recommending it, but it's nice to know some numbskull has already risked his own gun and body so I don't have to...

 

[MajorD]

A minor bit of Elmer Keith lore. He once put thousands of .38 Heavy Duty rounds through a Chief's Special over a period of several months. That stuff was loaded at mid-range .357 pressures, 'way more than any +P, and the little gun showed no measurable wear.

Not recommending it, but it's nice to know some numbskull has already risked his own gun and body so I don't have to...

While we owe a lot to the development of both revolvers and ammo from the work of Elmer Keith, he definitely lived on the edge and blew up quite a few guns as he charted new territory in handgun performance

There is very little chance of damaging a gun with +P even very old ones. In reality ( of course there are rare exceptions) most people are going to buy some expensive boutique plus p shoot 5 or 6 to figure out the point of aim/ impact then carry another 5 or 6. Maybe shoot up the ammo in the gun once a year and replace? At that rate the " accelerated wear" from plus P will show in about 100 years.
My answer if I felt the need for plus P for a certain application and all I had was an old pre model number gun, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Neither of the scenarios are at all likely, as I don't see any advantage to plus p and I have plenty of more recent production guns to use it in if I did have that inclination.

 

[A10]

My recollection is that S&W has stated the modern +P loads are fine in their steel frame revolvers, manufactured after the 50s (could be wrong about the date). I wouldn't go shooting them in a Model 12 or any other aluminum framed gun. The newer alloys are OK from what I have heard, but they do bite a bit.

 

[Beemer-mark]

I have a 36 no dash that I've had for a very. very long time. Was my EDC until I got convinced to buy a pocket 9. I had the same concern as you when I first got it but I found blessings from S&W that +P was OK. Know that is not the S&W company that made my revolver. And as others have noted load guides have gone seriously down hill. A steady diet, i.e. thousands of rounds, will stretch the frame and create other new issue. The gun will not blow up or catastrophically fail. I always carried and practiced with +P but that wasn't a whole of ammo, maybe 500 rounds in 25+ years.

 

[MSD2343]

Bottom line, you are much more likely to wear out long before your revolver does even when using +P ammo.

 

[johngalt]

This is the way I look at it:

Standard pressure is 17,000 psi. +P is 20,000 psi. Not much difference. If it isn't safe to shoot a 20,000 psi load, it isn't safe to shoot a 17,000 psi load either.

 

[ispcapt]

2 points.
I have a Model 49 (no dash) that has documented 5500 rds of 158 gr +P. I know exactly that many because I know how many qualifications shoots it's been thru. It still shoots fine. However, it is loose. It has a bit of end shake and slop in the cylinder. If someone just picked it up and checked it they might not notice it until they compare it to a less shot J frame. Not to say that every J frame would take that many rounds of +P. I can only speak for the 49 that I have.
2nd point.
You cannot compare loads of today with loads of yester years by looking at velocity numbers from years ago. Those numbers were calculated differently. Some were just out right inflated by the ammo makers. But the main reason is years ago, if they had accurate velocity numbers, they were done using a non-vented barrel and usually 10" to 16" length. More recently the numbers are calculated using vented barrels and of lengths actually used in firearms.
So when someone gives velocity numbers and says "in the 1950s the standard .38 loads were hotter than today's +P" that's not true. A lot of those numbers from the 1950s were fabrication and if a maker actually got those velocities it was from a long, non-vented barrel. Comparing apples to oranges.
And old Elmer was prone to a bit of exaggeration on occasion too.

 

[BAM-BAM]

My "guess" is, for all practical purposes, out of a 2" barrel all you'll get is more "flash and bang"!!!!

 

[WR Moore]

With respect to post #4....

Published data from way back when is suspect. What testing was done used test barrels longer than standard handgun barrels and the results often featured some creative writing. SAAMI was established in 1926 and while a lot of stuff was standardized, whoever developed a cartridge got to specify all relevant specs and the length of the test barrel. Since actual chronographs were very few and far between and ballistic pendulums were educated guesses without a testing standard, the highly elastic facts went undiscovered.

Only after chronographs became widely available did the differences between published and actual velocities become very apparent. That was when SAMMI stepped in and we saw vents in test barrels along with more appropriate lengths. A barrel maker who worked at a firm that supplied test barrels once remarked on a forum that test barrels are very carefully made to demanding specifications, so there's still some differences between published and real world velocities.

OTOH, even back then there were probably folks whose motto was "Damn the pressures, more powder!"

 

[stansdds]

Steel frame, steel cylinder, and a model number stamped into the yoke recess... I'd shoot +P in it. Maybe not a constant diet of +P, but I don't think I need to punish my hands and wrists either. I would definitely carry it with +P and I would fire at least a couple of cylinders full of +P during each practice session for familiarization purposes.