+P in old Model 36?

[BabaBlueJay]

I am looking into some Buffalo Bore for defensive ammo for my Chief. I plan to mostly use their low flash standard pressure stuff because my gun is not rated for +P. That being said, I really enjoyed shooting their heavy outdoorsman hard cast in 357 for bear rounds as where I live we have tons of Black Bear. Would shooting a small amount of +P hard cast destroy the gun or I could I get away with shooting 5 every now and again and using it while camping?

I am assuming it would be fine as its a steel revolver and guns only recently started getting +P rating in 1999, but just wanted to do my due dilligence.

 

[armorer951]

How "old" is the question.

Smith and Wesson's guidance is if it says ".38 +P" on the barrel, then the gun is rated for commercial +P ammunition. Check your owner's manual under "Ammunition".

I believe many here on the forum regularly use +P rated commercial ammunition in their currently produced J frames without incident.


Owner's manual......

•""Plus-P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the
pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures
may affect the wear characteristics and may result in the need for more frequent service."


From an armorer's perspective, and since the terminal ballistic differences/gains from +P ammunition are minimal out of short barrel J frames, I would forgo the higher pressure ammunition.
Just my opinion though.....it's your gun.

Carter

 

[murphydog]

You mention BB .357 hard cast loads but using their load in your model 36?

I would recommend using the gun model mentioned within your member name if the threat of a bear encounter is high. Handles full power .357 and much easier to control multiple rapid shots.

 

[rct269]

I will suggest you have a look at the ballistic tables published from back in the day BEFORE the performance of the loads was reduced. (I have some tables from the 1920's---and they are VERY interesting!) For the sake of apples to apples, look at the performance of the regular, everyday 158 grain bullet load (or whatever the bullet weight is). For the sake of avoiding arguments, just keep it at that. Now look at the tables for today's +P load---the same load. Note the minuscule difference. There are most certainly some hot (or at least somewhat warm) +P loads using lighter weight bullets, but remember---apples to apples.

So, what's this +P business all about---why did they come to be? Let me again "suggest" they came about in an effort to increase (INCREASE, as in +) the profit margins of those who make them---answering the question of "What can we do to increase our profit margins?" The answer was very likely along these lines: "Well, there's a large, and growing number of folks buying guns for personal defense----the numbers of carry permits are going through the roof---how about we increase the performance of the loads back to about what they were before we reduced them, and give them a catchy name----+P---P for performance?" "You think that might work?" The man at the head of the table then said, "You know, that just might work!" And sure enough, it worked!

AND, in the food for thought department, do you think (even for a split second) the ammo folks are going to produce a load for ANY gun ever built that will even come close to damaging the gun---never mind the shooter? I can see the plaintiff's bar just drooling at the prospect of that!! I can see it now: "CALL 1-800 BAD AMMO. You pay nothing unless we win your lawsuit."

Now, what was your question again?

Ralph Tremaine

OH!! I almost forgot!! Let's talk about guns "rated for +P". Can you think of a better way to increase the sale of guns? It's a match made in heaven----money-money-money----------------that which used to be your money-----and is now THEIR money!!!

 

[Pisgah]

+P will not destroy your gun. Shooting it continuously will wear it out faster than standard-pressure stuff, but there'll be no blow-up. So, sure, you can shoot a few and carry a cylinder-full -- but you may decide that the well-proven standard pressure loads may be good enough without the extra abuse to hand and gun. Me? I usually carry standard-pressure .38s in a .357 snub...

 

[BabaBlueJay]

You mention BB .357 hard cast loads but using their load in your model 36?

I would recommend using the gun model mentioned within your member name if the threat of a bear encounter is high. Handles full power .357 and much easier to control multiple rapid shots.

That's true if I am out camping I usually have my 686 on me. Valid point

 

[luvsmiths]

Todays Plus P was yesteryear's mild load.

 

[rct269]

Todays Plus P was yesteryear's mild load.

That there is a man of few words!

Me---I'm prone to run on---and on!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[MetalMan]

"Rule of thumb" is that any S&W revolver marked with a model number is safe for +P ammunition in moderation…just not a steady diet.

 

[luvsmiths]

That there is a man of few words!

Me---I'm prone to run on---and on!

Ralph Tremaine

The "P" in +P?

PROFIT- not "performance"!

 

[Pisgah]

A minor bit of Elmer Keith lore. He once put thousands of .38 Heavy Duty rounds through a Chief's Special over a period of several months. That stuff was loaded at mid-range .357 pressures, 'way more than any +P, and the little gun showed no measurable wear.

Not recommending it, but it's nice to know some numbskull has already risked his own gun and body so I don't have to...

 

[MajorD]

A minor bit of Elmer Keith lore. He once put thousands of .38 Heavy Duty rounds through a Chief's Special over a period of several months. That stuff was loaded at mid-range .357 pressures, 'way more than any +P, and the little gun showed no measurable wear.

Not recommending it, but it's nice to know some numbskull has already risked his own gun and body so I don't have to...

While we owe a lot to the development of both revolvers and ammo from the work of Elmer Keith, he definitely lived on the edge and blew up quite a few guns as he charted new territory in handgun performance

There is very little chance of damaging a gun with +P even very old ones. In reality ( of course there are rare exceptions) most people are going to buy some expensive boutique plus p shoot 5 or 6 to figure out the point of aim/ impact then carry another 5 or 6. Maybe shoot up the ammo in the gun once a year and replace? At that rate the " accelerated wear" from plus P will show in about 100 years.
My answer if I felt the need for plus P for a certain application and all I had was an old pre model number gun, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. Neither of the scenarios are at all likely, as I don't see any advantage to plus p and I have plenty of more recent production guns to use it in if I did have that inclination.

 

[A10]

My recollection is that S&W has stated the modern +P loads are fine in their steel frame revolvers, manufactured after the 50s (could be wrong about the date). I wouldn't go shooting them in a Model 12 or any other aluminum framed gun. The newer alloys are OK from what I have heard, but they do bite a bit.

 

[Beemer-mark]

I have a 36 no dash that I've had for a very. very long time. Was my EDC until I got convinced to buy a pocket 9. I had the same concern as you when I first got it but I found blessings from S&W that +P was OK. Know that is not the S&W company that made my revolver. And as others have noted load guides have gone seriously down hill. A steady diet, i.e. thousands of rounds, will stretch the frame and create other new issue. The gun will not blow up or catastrophically fail. I always carried and practiced with +P but that wasn't a whole of ammo, maybe 500 rounds in 25+ years.

 

[MSD2343]

Bottom line, you are much more likely to wear out long before your revolver does even when using +P ammo.

 

[johngalt]

This is the way I look at it:

Standard pressure is 17,000 psi. +P is 20,000 psi. Not much difference. If it isn't safe to shoot a 20,000 psi load, it isn't safe to shoot a 17,000 psi load either.

 

[ispcapt]

2 points.
I have a Model 49 (no dash) that has documented 5500 rds of 158 gr +P. I know exactly that many because I know how many qualifications shoots it's been thru. It still shoots fine. However, it is loose. It has a bit of end shake and slop in the cylinder. If someone just picked it up and checked it they might not notice it until they compare it to a less shot J frame. Not to say that every J frame would take that many rounds of +P. I can only speak for the 49 that I have.
2nd point.
You cannot compare loads of today with loads of yester years by looking at velocity numbers from years ago. Those numbers were calculated differently. Some were just out right inflated by the ammo makers. But the main reason is years ago, if they had accurate velocity numbers, they were done using a non-vented barrel and usually 10" to 16" length. More recently the numbers are calculated using vented barrels and of lengths actually used in firearms.
So when someone gives velocity numbers and says "in the 1950s the standard .38 loads were hotter than today's +P" that's not true. A lot of those numbers from the 1950s were fabrication and if a maker actually got those velocities it was from a long, non-vented barrel. Comparing apples to oranges.
And old Elmer was prone to a bit of exaggeration on occasion too.

 

[BAM-BAM]

My "guess" is, for all practical purposes, out of a 2" barrel all you'll get is more "flash and bang"!!!!

 

[WR Moore]

With respect to post #4....

Published data from way back when is suspect. What testing was done used test barrels longer than standard handgun barrels and the results often featured some creative writing. SAAMI was established in 1926 and while a lot of stuff was standardized, whoever developed a cartridge got to specify all relevant specs and the length of the test barrel. Since actual chronographs were very few and far between and ballistic pendulums were educated guesses without a testing standard, the highly elastic facts went undiscovered.

Only after chronographs became widely available did the differences between published and actual velocities become very apparent. That was when SAMMI stepped in and we saw vents in test barrels along with more appropriate lengths. A barrel maker who worked at a firm that supplied test barrels once remarked on a forum that test barrels are very carefully made to demanding specifications, so there's still some differences between published and real world velocities.

OTOH, even back then there were probably folks whose motto was "Damn the pressures, more powder!"

 

[stansdds]

Steel frame, steel cylinder, and a model number stamped into the yoke recess... I'd shoot +P in it. Maybe not a constant diet of +P, but I don't think I need to punish my hands and wrists either. I would definitely carry it with +P and I would fire at least a couple of cylinders full of +P during each practice session for familiarization purposes.

 

[WR Moore]

Just for S&Gs, I went to the Buffalo Bore website. The Outdoorsman load has a claimed velocity of 1250 f/s with a 158 gr bullet. Apparently their idea of a duplication of the old .38-/.44 high speed load. I'm not sure who's blending their powders or which SAAMI maximum pressure they're claiming to meet (there are 3, skipping titles, they're the maximum average pressure that ammunition should be at/below, the sample lot mean [higher] and the YOUR AMMO SHOULD NEVER EXCEED THIS PRESSURE level.), that's in the neighborhood of .357 magnum velocity levels.

While the metallurgy of fire arms has changed somewhat over the decades, the original load was intended for use in heavy frame revolvers. Those being the Colt New Service and the S&W N frames. Others have noted that +P pressures (and above) increase wear. There's another factor here and that's your ability to accurately place shots at that level of recoil.

In short, limited +P use, OK, but recoil is going to increase. The heavy stuff, your choice, I wouldn't. Where you put the bullet is far more important than the other factors. If you want additional power, get a bigger gun.

 

[chief38]

S&W 's answer has been..... if there is a model number stamped on the gun it is safe for +P's. That said, the less +P's go through the gun the longer your revolver will stay tight.

When I carried a M60-7 for EDC I carried Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain SWCHP-GC which were really super hot! I only shot a cylinder full for practice an familiarization once a year - otherwise I'd practice with standard velocity ammo of the same grain weight.

While I do not use that revolver for SD any longer, the revolver is still tight and in perfect condition. I would not shoot more than a cylinder full of such heavy loads a year - but that's just me.

Any S&W that was produced without a model number on it (used to just be called a Chief's Special, Bodyguard, etc. ) I would not push my luck with. I do have some early "Baby Chief's" that have never had any +P's at all through them.

 

[Lobster Picnic]

I would use Buffalo Bore's standard pressure ammo for normal carry. If there's a chance of bears, you could carry the +P. I doubt it will hurt the gun though it might hurt your hand.

 

[FLJoe]

A minor bit of Elmer Keith lore. He once put thousands of .38 Heavy Duty rounds through a Chief's Special over a period of several months. That stuff was loaded at mid-range .357 pressures, 'way more than any +P, and the little gun showed no measurable wear.

Not recommending it, but it's nice to know some numbskull has already risked his own gun and body so I don't have to...

Mr. Keith must have had iron hands. I tried a cylinder full of Underwood's version of the Buffalo Bore the OP is mentioning. It was in my 642 with a wood grip. I have big hands, and I've beat them up a lot over the years, but I feel like they're pretty strong still. I'm not exaggerating when I say I could feel it in the palm of my hand, in the pad below my thumb, for a week. My follow up shots on that one cylinder load were terrible. I'll carry it still if I'm bicycling in the woods and wearing padded cycling gloves, otherwise it's lighter duty ammo for me. At least I know I can hit my target more than once. I'm not sure if the Buffalo Bore is loaded to the same velocity as Underwoods, but that stuff sounded like 357 and felt unlike any other +P I've shot through that little airweight. I know the 36 is steel and a little heavier so it might not be quite as bad.

 

[press-1-for-english]

Very interesting and informative thread. I own a S&W 67-1, 66-1, and 686 no dash. All from the 1980's. All 4" bbls. I use Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain .38 Special in all 3. Standard velocity in the 67 and +P in the 66 & 686. Same +P load for my SP101 snubby. Works for me.

 

[ImDrRich]

There is NO WAY I would shoot +P ammo in my 36 or 60.

 

[Rpg]

I've no particular use for +p 38 special ammo.

I don't think it delivers anything that standard pressure ammo doesn't (except for additional recoil and noise): especially in a 1 7/8" barreled revolver.

As has been suggested, the benefit of +p ammo accrues primarily to the ammo manufacturer, not the shooter.

I've shot some animals with standard and +p38 special (not the same animal) and can't tell a difference in terms of the animal's reaction to being shot.

I certainly wouldn't buy +p 38 special with my money.

 

[Repeater]

I have a 36, no dash and would never use +P ammo in it. I've been told that a few rounds won't hurt, but a steady diet would be detrimental. I figure...Why take the chance? I have other pistols that will take that ammo without issue. Why risk it at all?

 

[bmcgilvray]

I have a Baby Chief's Special here with a serial number of 2018 that shipped in March of 1952. I've shot it with +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter ammunition. Shot several cylinders-full for sight verification and familiarization. Nothing happened.

I have a K-Frame Hand Ejector Military & Police .38 Special with a serial number of 50587 (should put it about 1904). I've shot it with +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter ammunition. It was doing duty as the 5-inch .38 Special representative in a chronograph test of .38 Special ammunition in all barrel lengths from 2-inch to 8 3/8-inch. It fired 30 rounds of the FBI load from three different factory ammunition batches. It also fired a series of 10 handloaded "+P equivalent" loads using 5. 1 grains of Unique. Nothing happened.

Both are steel-framed revolvers. Neither was discernably looser after the tests. Would they loosen with a steady diet of the +P loads? Perhaps.

In my observations from chronograph tests, either factory 158 grain +P or its handloaded equivalent produce about 50 fps to 75 fps additional velocity from a 2-inch snub .38 Special over standard velocity loads. Is it worth it? The shooter will have to determine that in his own mind.

I have no use for any lightweight .38 Special or .357 Magnum factory loadings.

Excepting for the boutique manufacturers of the heavy +P ammunition, all the mainline "Fedingchester" brands and types of .38 Special +P ammunition, especially those with lightweight bullets do not amount to any more performance than can be provided by the amount of ink it took to print "+P" on the box's end flaps. That bit of ink renders the ammunition more costly though.

I have no use for any .38 Special or .357 Magnum factory loadings with the lightweight bullets currently popular. Those light bullets are best used in inferior cartridges like 9mm Luger and .380 ACP.

I wouldn't shoot Underwood or Buffalo Bore +P through either revolver except if that was all I had available and was experiencing an emergency need.

 

[TJm15.38]

I gave my daughter a 1988-vintage Model 36 "Lady Smith." The Owner's manual said it was rated for +P ammo. I advised against shooting +P in it. I gave her two boxes of standard pressure 158 grain semi-wadcutters. I own a Model 638 that says ".38 S&W Spl+P" on the barrel. I don't shoot +P in the Airweight either.