Perfected Model No Serial

[steelslaver]

Here unless I have the gun on me while being accused of a crime a LEO can't even ask to look it over. Game warden can't ask if it is loaded and that is no offense anyway. No obvious crime they need a warrant to just look in my glove compartment, wallet or what have you. If I am outside away from my vehicle and accused of a crime he can not go to my vehicle and search it without a warrant. The Bill of Rights actually means something here.

I think it will be interesting to see what the BATF responds to my email. I know guns have had numbers re stamped before. But, like most Alphabets it seems to matter who decides on which day just what is legal.

 

[Johnnu2]

This is just my humble opinion but, IF I were ever asked by any LEO to show them my firearm for any reason/inspection, I would do so without reservation. I'm very old and was taught to respect the LEO(s); and since I would not be in possession of anything illegal under any circumstances, this would further enhance my willingness in assisting law enforcement in their endeavors.
IMHO as always,
J.

 

[Oyeboteb]

How many present day LEO of any kind would even know where the Serial Number would have been, or know if one had ever even been present to begin with, on a Revolver of this age?

Pretty well none, that's how many...

Even most FFLS now would have no idea.

 

[Oyeboteb]

8 or 10 years ago, I was living in Las Vegas, and one had to Register any concealable arm with the Police there.

This meant even a Flint Lock Pistol, anything...etc...

I had gotten a reproduction Colt 3rd Model Dragoon, and so I dutifully went to 'register' it.

The guy in charge of Registration for the Station I went to, insisted my Revolver was a .44 Special, and he would not listen to reason.

I pointed out nicely how there are no openings on the rear of the Cylinder to load metallic Cartridges, but he would not believe me.

So it got registered as a "44 Special" Colt 'Dragoon'.

Welcome to LEO-Land in the 21st Century ladies and gentlemen...and this was on a good day.

 

[gmborkovic]

James, I too have never been stopped or checked going to the range.
I too have never had a firearm with obliterated frame numbers.
What my concern is that someone may use an altered numbered gun as
a personal carry weapon to protect themselves either out and about or at home. If the unfortunate came about where you had to discharge said weapon and the police got involved, you are left alive but carrying an altered gun. What would happen, not a clue.
Solution: simple, carry a legal gun.

 

[mrcvs]

Even most FFLS now would have no idea.

Funny you should say that. I bought a Triple Lock once and had it shipped to my FFL. He had no idea where the serial number was and listed the serial number as the model number. It's amazing how little he knows about firearms.

 

[steelslaver]

Like observed here lots of LEOs are not really gun guys. I have twice had FFL holders start writing down the yoke cut out assy number of older models on the 4473.

If a Leo asked to seem my gun I might ask why, but in all probability let him as I have zip to hide. My wife on the other hand would inform him of her legal opinion and demand a warrant. Being an attorney she is funny that way. LOL

I do agree that such guns are more trouble than anything else. But, I am interested in finding out what the BATF responds.

 

[BMur]

BATF "Compliance inspections"

I guess I'm just not a lucky person? I've seen BATF at rifle ranges, gun shows, multiple gun shops, etc. (All of those gun shops are closed now) California is such a wonderful place to live.

They call it a "Compliance inspection". Using the GCA ( Gun control Act of 1968) as their guidance. I was at a range once where they actually walked up and down the range looking at firearms. I saw them pick up a few semi-auto rifles also. I wasn't there long enough to see any bad results but they were certainly looking closely.

I have personally seen them set up a table at a major gun show to "Sting" illegal gun activity. Needless to say I steered clear of any and all of those locations. No serial number guns are a well known part of their basic inspections.

So, I'm more focused on BATF than any LEO. I don't like to verbally explain any firearm specs (Especially antiques since they don't know much about them) to LEO's so I keep copies of DROS on each firearm I have in my vehicle etc in the gun cases for each gun. Yeah, I'm anal but it works!

LEO's seem to focus more on basic laws here. Like storage, concealed carry, "loaded" vs. unloaded firearms, locked storage and legal transportation of firearms.

I was hunting once during deer season and was pulled over in my 56' Chevy panel truck due to a headlight out. It actually popped on the way up North so not much I could do but it sure got me pulled over in a hurry.

The officer asked me right away, "Do you have any firearms?.....I said well, yeah, I'm going hunting. I said they are all legal, registered, licensed, and unloaded and he just smiled and let me go. Gave me a fix it ticket for the headlight.

Murph

 

[JSR III]

As one further note and observation, this gun wears the 2 screw extension target stocks common on the single shots and the .22/32 HFT's. As such, the stocks cover the butt of the gun and therefore even if the gun butt bore a serial number it would not be visible. As others have stated many FFL's and LEO's are not familiar where all manufacturers place their serial numbers so again I would not worry about it. You are free to do as you choose.

 

[Oldbird13]

This is what I did....

I went through a simillar situation with a Nickel Colt Detective Special that once belonged to the Sheriff in my locale. He became very close friends to a friend of mine and gave my friend his Colt which had his name engraved on it..and the serial number area was scratched/ground off. My friend, who passed away last year, told me to "weld the cylinder shut/don't shoot it". I wanted to shoot it and keep the gun as a tribute/memory to my friend. I own a number of guns and did NOT want to jeopardize my privilege to own guns so I contacted the local BATF office. They sent an agent out to my home and we discussed the situation and I had documentation that the "engraved" Colt was owned by the Sheriff back in the early 30's. I was a bit nervous as the agent said we had 3 options. 1. For him to take the gun and not return it. 2. For him to take it and send it to a lab to try to see if they could "pull" the serial number. 3. Sorry I cannot recall option #3. I might add that several parties on respected forums said I would be foolish to contact the BATF but the gun had so much sentimental value that I wanted to be able to "legally" keep and fire the weapon. The meeting with the BATF agent took place May 10 2019. After that meeting I was fairly diligent in contacting the agent however my "case" was way down the list of BATF priorities

 

[Oldbird13]

This is what I did...continued
After the meeting with the BATF agent my friend passed away unexpectedly and my Dad who was also close to my friend passed last Christmas. This gun now had greater importance. I received a call within the last 60 days that they could not pull the serial number but were sending the gun to an engraver for a new serial number and I would get it back. Not sure if I would go through this again unless there was tremendous sentimental value in the gun like there is with this Colt. I know it isn't a Smith but when I finally receive it I will post photos.

 

[glowe]

Thank you for your story. Finally found someone who followed the process with success. What that tells me is that the gun, without a frame serial number, was illegal to own in the eyes of the BATFE. Was it manufactured before 1968?

 

[Oldbird13]

The Sheriff was "The" Sheriff in the early 1930's. The Colt DS is a 1st series gun made before 1940 so prior to the Act.

 

[deadin]

What that tells me is that the gun, without a frame serial number, was illegal to own in the eyes of the BATFE

Amen to this!.. However, they did offer a remedy.

(I wouldn't count on this in every instance. It would probably depend on the agent one was working with, and which side of the bed he got up on that morning...)

 

[Oyeboteb]

Far as I recall, a Licensed Gunsmith can also petition the B of A T F & E on behalf of the Gun Owner, to then Stamp the Serial Number back on the Butt.

 

[Books]

Far as I recall, a Licensed Gunsmith can also petition the B of A T F & E on behalf of the Gun Owner, to then Stamp the Serial Number back on the Butt.

That would seem to be the most logical course of action.
(But logic and a Federal bureaucracy don't always mix.)

Books

 

[BMur]

Standard Procedure

In my opinion the BATF simply follows a standard procedure based on the GCA of 1968.

The difference being the outcome for the person in possession of the no serial number altered gun. If they "find" the altered gun or if the "altered" serial number gun is presented to them.

If they find it in a compliance search? It's gone! and they then look for proof that the gun is in fact stolen by attempting to pull up the serial number. While you wait in a cell block. If the number comes up or if they find a number on the gun? They then run a check to see if they can locate a Police report that proves the gun was stolen. Not unlike the Bonnie and Clyde gun. The owner filled out a report in the 1930's. So I think the ultimate outcome is based on the BATF finding proof that the gun was stolen and if the original owner filled out a Police Report.

If they can prove the gun was stolen? The outcome as an example for this Sheriffs gun would be much different in my view. Even if it was stolen in 1940!!

The response from the BATF would have been much different! NOT WORTH IT! in my opinion that was a big risk.

Just my opinion. I have no problem going legal and exercising my rights? but I prefer to "Avoid" having to do so. It can cost you a lot of time, money, and major headache. When its all said and done? The gun isn't worth the $50,000 lawyer fees!

I have a few horror stories from extremists in California who have ZERO gun knowledge but won’t hesitate to scream at the top of their lungs “GUN”!!!!

In Oklahoma they don’t even blink at the sight of a firearm but in California?, specifically the Bay Area? You have to experience it. There are NO gun rights according to the left!


Murph

 

[steelslaver]

I guess I'm just not a lucky person? I've seen BATF at rifle ranges, gun shows, multiple gun shops, etc. (All of those gun shops are closed now) California is such a wonderful place to live.

They call it a "Compliance inspection". Using the GCA ( Gun control Act of 1968) as their guidance. I was at a range once where they actually walked up and down the range looking at firearms. I saw them pick up a few semi-auto rifles also. I wasn't there long enough to see any bad results but they were certainly looking closely.

I have personally seen them set up a table at a major gun show to "Sting" illegal gun activity. Needless to say I steered clear of any and all of those locations. No serial number guns are a well known part of their basic inspections.

So, I'm more focused on BATF than any LEO. I don't like to verbally explain any firearm specs (Especially antiques since they don't know much about them) to LEO's so I keep copies of DROS on each firearm I have in my vehicle etc in the gun cases for each gun. Yeah, I'm anal but it works!

LEO's seem to focus more on basic laws here. Like storage, concealed carry, "loaded" vs. unloaded firearms, locked storage and legal transportation of firearms.

I was hunting once during deer season and was pulled over in my 56' Chevy panel truck due to a headlight out. It actually popped on the way up North so not much I could do but it sure got me pulled over in a hurry.

The officer asked me right away, "Do you have any firearms?.....I said well, yeah, I'm going hunting. I said they are all legal, registered, licensed, and unloaded and he just smiled and let me go. Gave me a fix it ticket for the headlight.

Murph

and where does it say that even the BATF has a right to search my private property with no warrant or probable cause. The guns show Maybe. The range never. Lots of LEOs over step the law and think they have more powers than they really do. Plus, if you don't claim your legal right you can forfeit it. In other words even he has 0 authority to look your gun over, if he ask and you hand it over you gave up you right against illegal search. Just like when a LEO ask to enter your home. If you say come on in his good. If you say NO, he needs a warrant.

Here I have been stopped for speeding with several (loaded) rifles, handguns and such in plain view. Never even asked a single question about them. If a game warden stopped me going down the road and asked if my guns were loaded I would simply say "Why do you ask?" First here it is 100% legal and here my truck is an legally an extension of my home and can only be searched without a warrant if a criminal violation is in plain sight. A gun is not a crime. He can't even ask me if I have a permit if he sees a hand gun in my rig. No permit needed for that.

 

[steelslaver]

PS, Just to be clear.

I don't have any interest in owning a gun with a removed number or illegal in any way. I would definitely avoid owning one. If I came across an interesting one that I did want, I will know how to deal with it or will not get it. That simple. But, my rights are my rights and searching my private belonging without a warrant isn't happening. Now a FFL holder has agreed to have his checked at any time. Big difference

 

[merl67]

Since whstever occurred happened 51 years ago I doubt records still exist, and I would venture even if they do given how many Topbreak smiths might have the same serial as this one had even matching it up would be the same odds as buying a winning lottery ticket, getting shark bit, and struck by lightning all in the same day. If it really worried me there is a simple remedy machinist already know....