Performance Center 952-2 longslide vs Performance Center PPC9 6"

[rickinmd]

Thanks for the load data Ed. Hope you get years of enjoyment out of that pistol.

 

[lyle1]

Thank you bc1023 for taking the time to review so many wonderful pistols. I have read your evaluations posted on Glocktalk, and I must say, you are one of best sources that I use before making a pistol purchase.
I have a friend that I shoot with that has a nearly brand new 952-2 6" longslide. It is a fantastic pistol, but like any other, it definitely has it likes and dislikes of factory ammo choices. We were out last week testing some loads, and he tried AE 124g FMJ ammo and it was terrible.
We then tried AE 147g Flat nose FMJ and it was very, very, good.

 

[rickinmd]

Thanks for posting that, Lyle1. I happen to have some AE 147 gr. FP on hand.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I would like to know more information on them, thought it would be easy to find when they were made and the differences between the various versions. So far my searches have been pretty slim. I would appreciate references and naturally any information you may have.

 

[bc1023]

I would like to know more information on them, thought it would be easy to find when they were made and the differences between the various versions. So far my searches have been pretty slim. I would appreciate references and naturally any information you may have.

Ed, there were several "small" runs with different color schemes and some variations in the machining. However, the main versions of the 952 are as follows:

952 = blued gun with no grip safety
952-1 = blued gun with grip safety
952-2 = stainless gun with grip safety
952-2 Longslide = stainless gun with grip safety and 6" barrel

 

[Ed Fowler]

Thank you sir! You have provided me with more information than hours of internet search. I most sincerely appreciate it

 

[Ed Fowler]

This thread prompted me to conduct some accuracy experiments, I had to pick up 2 S&W 952-1s to compare to my Sig P 210's, a Legend and a Legend Target.

The first part of the test has been shooting 4 500 round groups at 12 inch chain sprockets at 88 yards from a very stable sitting position using what I consider my accuracy load, 3.5 grains of 700X behind a 122 grain lead cast TC bullet from Rim Rock Bullets and Starline Brass all from the same lot. Pistols were shot on consecutive days, weather permitting over the coerce of 4 months.

Accuracy was recorded by the percentage of hits from each pistol.
The S&W 952-1 came out on top with 96% hits, the Sig Legend was close behind with 92% hits.

For my eyes there is a noticeable difference between the sights on the Legend and the Wilson Combat sights on the 952-1.

I find the Legend more pleasant to dry fire as the hammer is more friendly to my thumb when cocking the pistol. Both are very pleasant to shoot. The 952-s always throws the brass in a neat little pile at my side while the Sig Legend P 210 throws brass over a much wider area.

I found it easy to learn their triggers and am very pleased with them both, they are slightly different but delightful and a tribute to the makers art.

My next test will be comparing the Sig Legend Target with my second 952-1, both of them were in new condition when I got them. Someone had shot the 952-1 with some lead bullets that really leaded the barrel, the groves were completely filled with lead obscuring the rifling in the back 1/2 of the barrel. The seller told me he had bought it used and shot it but that it did not shoot well in his hands. As usual I broke her down and cleaned her completely. After a little work I got the lead out and it shot a 2" group at the 88 yard chain sprocket. I feel it will
be very competitive against the Legend Target.

Which is more accurate? At this time I feel they are very close to equal but different, in a match I would not take either for granted.

 

[goldenlight]

So far I have only used the load that I found that works best in my Sig P 210's and tried it today in my 952-1. My first 40 round group at 88 yards measured a little over 7 inches. It must be about the same as the man who used her last used because they were center hold and about 4 inches to the right, but the sun was far to the left which could account for the windage.

3.4 grains of 700 X
Rim Rock 122 grain TC lead bullets
Over All Length of cartridge, 1.34.

I found that the TC 122 grain lead bullets were much more accurate at long range than the 115 grain lead round nose.

I like to judge accuracy on groups of at least 50 shots, it is easy to shoot a smaller group with 5 or 10 shots but I feel the more you shoot the better your prediction of accuracy.

SR 7625 proved very accurate, but I did not have enough to shoot it a lot, that powder is very scarce here.

After shooting I always run a brush filled with bore butter through the bore.

I find mine an absolute joy to shoot, hope you do also.

I expect you would find significantly better accuracy using 124gr. FMJ handloads. If you want the best possible accuracy, WEIGH each powder load. Yes, it's slow. Yes, it makes a difference.

I have cast hundreds of thousands of those curious flat point 122 grain lead bullets. My brother calls them 'crayon point bullets', for their similarity to the Crayola crayons when new. They are great for plinking and shooting for fun, due to their low cost, but manufactured 124gr. FMJ deliver significantly better accuracy in my most accurate 9mm, my H&K P9S Target Model. Since it only has a 4 inch barrel, I doubt it can match the accuracy of a PC 9mm with a 6 inch barrel. But it is fun to shoot. At this point, my long past middle age eyes are the greatest hindrance to my accuracy, beyond about 25 feet. Getting old sucks.

 

[bc1023]

Thanks for the report, Ed. The 952 and P210 are among the most accurate 9mms in the world.

Add a Pardini GT9 into the mix too...

 

[oldRoger]

I have a Pardini GT with the 6" barrel. It has a superb trigger and the sights are typical of a high end match pistol.
I also have a CZ 75 from the CZ Custom Shop which is on a par with my P210.

I have reviewed some ransom rest tests done in Europe to test the precision of various commercial and hand loaded 9mm ammunition.
I am convinced that the limitation in all of the high end pistols discussed here is ammunition.

I cannot hold close enough to test ammunition for precision, but the tests I refer to above suggest that a 1.5" vertical string at 50 meters is typical of the very best commercial ammunition.
These tests also confirm that some ammunition is more precise in some pistols than others.

My point is that given the ammunition variables it would take a Ransom Rest and a lot of work to determine which is the most precise pistol which is not the same as the best match pistol.

 

[bc1023]

I have a Pardini GT with the 6" barrel. It has a superb trigger and the sights are typical of a high end match pistol.
I also have a CZ 75 from the CZ Custom Shop which is on a par with my P210.

I have reviewed some ransom rest tests done in Europe to test the precision of various commercial and hand loaded 9mm ammunition.
I am convinced that the limitation in all of the high end pistols discussed here is ammunition.

I cannot hold close enough to test ammunition for precision, but the tests I refer to above suggest that a 1.5" vertical string at 50 meters is typical of the very best commercial ammunition.
These tests also confirm that some ammunition is more precise in some pistols than others.

My point is that given the ammunition variables it would take a Ransom Rest and a lot of work to determine which is the most precise pistol which is not the same as the best match pistol.

I would agree. Also, different pistols like different ammo, so its nearly impossible to do a completely fair comparison. Having said that, I do the best I can with what I have.

High end pistols are my thing. I'm fortunate enough to own pretty much all of them and enjoy pitting them against each other in my amateur sort of way.

I list many of them here...

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/high-end-centerfire-pistol-buyers-guide.23120/

 

[dakota1911]

Nice report. When the 952 was still on the S&W website I decided not to buy a 5 inch and wait for a 6 inch. Regret that now. It is a pistol I keep my eyes open for. I guess I can contribute a picture of my 52-2.

 

[bc1023]

Nice report. When the 952 was still on the S&W website I decided not to buy a 5 inch and wait for a 6 inch. Regret that now. It is a pistol I keep my eyes open for.

They aren't hard to find on Gunbroker. Finding them in your local shop is a rarity.

 

[Karl in NY]

I have both barrel lengths of the 952-2 and the long slide version of the PPC9...I had a second PPC9 that I stupidly sold, and surprisingly, it was difficult to find a buyer for back then, when any cop could order one (and, wait). Also have a P210, but it is Danish military issue, so not a fair accuracy comparison...

Now, looking for an affordable 1911 6", without forward slide serrations.

 

[micberg]

I have a SIG P210, Pardini PC9 and a Smith & Wesson 952-2.
952-2 is for me the gun that I get the smallest groups with, and also the nicest one ;-)

 

[Sevens]

This is a cool thread from some time ago. One thing that seems worth adding is a reply to one post made some time back with regards to whether or not the 952's trigger is "adjustable" or not.

It is, actually, it's adjustable for over-travel. The fantastic old 52 trigger is two-way adjustable (pre-travel and over-travel) but as far as I can tell, the 952 is only adjustable for over-travel.

It does NOT adjust in the same way the 52 does. The 52 uses a set screw behind the trigger, visible inside the trigger guard and adjusted from inside the magazine well, with one or both stocks removed.

The 952's over travel screw is quite different, it runs through the trigger bar and is adjusted from above the field-stripped frame. You must go at it from a slight angle with an allen wrench, it is hidden quite well and it just isn't all too "obvious" to find if you don't know that it's there.

I can admit that I'm probably a "trigger snob" by many definitions... this is to say that I appreciate VERY MUCH SO, a sweet, smooth, clean, light trigger. I don't whine & cry over lousy triggers (too much ) but I -love- a fine trigger.

Part of my appreciation for a fine target trigger is one with precious little over-travel. Bless you if you don't care a bit, but this is something I really notice a whole lot. A trigger with excessive over travel removed is pure joy for me. On the other hand, I have very little use or care for adjusting the pre-travel. I just don't care about pre-travel and it doesn't seem to to matter to me, but taking out over-travel is a phenomenal feature in a target gun, in my opinion.

 

[bc1023]

I have a SIG P210, Pardini PC9 and a Smith & Wesson 952-2.
952-2 is for me the gun that I get the smallest groups with, and also the nicest one ;-)

Pardinis are incredibly slick, but I don't find my GT9 to be as accurate as any of my P210's or PC Smiths.

 

[flyer338]

This review is worthless. Who tests a target pistol for accuracy at 35 feet? The standard for pistols tested by the NRA and published in the Dope Bag or other articles was five five-shot groups at 25 yards (75 feet). Target pistols are often called on to hit the X-ring at 50 yards. Please at least give us 25 yard groups and 50 yard groups would be better.
A pox on your 35 foot groups - they mean nothing. As does your review.

 

[cherrypointmarine]

You did notice this post is almost 8 years old , didn't you ?

 

[bc1023]

This review is worthless. Who tests a target pistol for accuracy at 35 feet? The standard for pistols tested by the NRA and published in the Dope Bag or other articles was five five-shot groups at 25 yards (75 feet). Target pistols are often called on to hit the X-ring at 50 yards. Please at least give us 25 yard groups and 50 yard groups would be better.
A pox on your 35 foot groups - they mean nothing. As does your review.

You brought back a decade old thread for this nonsense?

I own all the high end guns and will review them as I see fit. You don't like it, post your own. Understood?

 

[Rick H.]

Don't know how I missed this thread back in the day but I did. There was certainly some interesting information and pictures passed around. Let's say it oozed of bling for gun guys, but if it's one thing I have learned in all my years of shooting it's that it is impossible to determine which is the best or most accurate pistol of all time. The testing of such is always argued including using a Ransom rest or not, type of ammo, what number of shots to fire and at what distance.

With a pistol I like to start any testing at 7 or 10 yards and go out from there. These days due to old age and eyes I only go out to 25 yards. 50 yards isn't in my bag of tricks anymore. I can learn what I need to know at 25 yards or less and I use IDPA targets only now. I no longer waste time and money shooting at traditional bullseye targets. I have yet to see a bad guy with a traditional bullseye target on his torso. All of the pistols spoken of in this thread should do quite well in my testing.

I fluctuate in my likes and dislikes of pistols. I love my Model 52's, but I also love my Sig P-210's and CZ's. I may opt to shoot any of these pistols on any given day and know I would do well with them. I have never owned the fancy S&W 952's or PPC guns spoken of in this thread as I didn't have the money for them when they were available from the factory and I instead concentrated on P-210's and as of late CZ's including a few Shadows and a TSO. I have a new Shadow Target on order and can't wait to get it, but alas, I will have to keep my horses in the barn and control myself. I did have the opportunity to shoot a friends 952 and I didn't do very well with it at the time, but I certainly don't fault the pistol. I always take a grain of salt when shooting an unfamiliar firearm.

I also own several Glocks that are relegated to EDC use for what should be obvious reasons and they shoot well for me too. Simply put I will never own the most accurate pistol of all time because there is no such thing. It's a miss-spoken dream of many people to say they have the most accurate of any firearm. They may think they have the most accurate, but the most accurate firearm is still under construction and in the future. And that's what makes this sport of shooting so much fun.

Rick H.

 

[flyer338]

I did not have an opportunity to buy a S&W 952 eight years ago. Nevertheless, the error by the reviewer is timeless. Bullseye slow-fire is shot at 50 yards, timed and rapid are shot at 25 yards. This pistol was made and marketed for this kind of competition. Accuracy testing a match pistol at 35 feet is, was, and always will be worthless.
If I wind up buying a 952, I will post meaningful accuracy test results here for all to see. Understood?

 

[bc1023]

I did not have an opportunity to buy a S&W 952 eight years ago. Nevertheless, the error by the reviewer is timeless. Bullseye slow-fire is shot at 50 yards, timed and rapid are shot at 25 yards. This pistol was made and marketed for this kind of competition. Accuracy testing a match pistol at 35 feet is, was, and always will be worthless.
If I wind up buying a 952, I will post meaningful accuracy test results here for all to see. Understood?

Wait a minute. You don't even own one and you're calling my decade old test worthless lol?

You'll need a PPC also. In fact, get three of each, so we can get a good sample size in your comparison…

 

[bc1023]

Don't know how I missed this thread back in the day but I did. There was certainly some interesting information and pictures passed around. Let's say it oozed of bling for gun guys, but if it's one thing I have learned in all my years of shooting it's that it is impossible to determine which is the best or most accurate pistol of all time. The testing of such is always argued including using a Ransom rest or not, type of ammo, what number of shots to fire and at what distance.

With a pistol I like to start any testing at 7 or 10 yards and go out from there. These days due to old age and eyes I only go out to 25 yards. 50 yards isn't in my bag of tricks anymore. I can learn what I need to know at 25 yards or less and I use IDPA targets only now. I no longer waste time and money shooting at traditional bullseye targets. I have yet to see a bad guy with a traditional bullseye target on his torso. All of the pistols spoken of in this thread should do quite well in my testing.

I fluctuate in my likes and dislikes of pistols. I love my Model 52's, but I also love my Sig P-210's and CZ's. I may opt to shoot any of these pistols on any given day and know I would do well with them. I have never owned the fancy S&W 952's or PPC guns spoken of in this thread as I didn't have the money for them when they were available from the factory and I instead concentrated on P-210's and as of late CZ's including a few Shadows and a TSO. I have a new Shadow Target on order and can't wait to get it, but alas, I will have to keep my horses in the barn and control myself. I did have the opportunity to shoot a friends 952 and I didn't do very well with it at the time, but I certainly don't fault the pistol. I always take a grain of salt when shooting an unfamiliar firearm.

I also own several Glocks that are relegated to EDC use for what should be obvious reasons and they shoot well for me too. Simply put I will never own the most accurate pistol of all time because there is no such thing. It's a miss-spoken dream of many people to say they have the most accurate of any firearm. They may think they have the most accurate, but the most accurate firearm is still under construction and in the future. And that's what makes this sport of shooting so much fun.

Rick H.

Rick, good stuff

I do love the P210. While I own them from three countries, the German models are my favorites.





I'm not a big Wadcutter fan, but I have a couple 52's that I shoot on occasion.

 

[flyer338]

I am not contesting the accuracy of your test results, only the value. No matter how many pistols you have or test, if the test criteria are of no value so are the tests.
Test your guns again at 25 and 50 yards - if you can; if you dare.
Every gun shoots groups that look good at 35' (12 yards), but what do they do at distances that matter? Match guns are judged at 25 and 50 yards.

 

[flyer338]

By the way, you have a nice collection.

 

[bc1023]

I am not contesting the accuracy of your test results, only the value. No matter how many pistols you have or test, if the test criteria are of no value so are the tests.
Test your guns again at 25 and 50 yards - if you can; if you dare.
Every gun shoots groups that look good at 35' (12 yards), but what do they do at distances that matter? Match guns are judged at 25 and 50 yards.

I understand match shooting, but the 952 and PPC were used for a number of things over the years.

 

[bc1023]

By the way, you have a nice collection.

Thank you

Hope you get one. They are fun to shoot