Pre-Model 28 Highway Patrolman Ratchet question

[MikeMagnum]

Hello everyone - first post for me on this site. I was very fortunate to be able to buy a late 1954 pre-model 28 Highway Patrolman that I absolutely love. It's seen some use for sure and has non-original stocks, but considering it's 66 years old, it's in really good shape. It has some cylinder endshake which is easy enough to fix. My question is this - the ratchet, although it seems to work fine, has the most wear. Does anybody know if a replacement is available? The cylinder / ratchet has the counterbores. Thanks for your time!

 

[armorer951]

Welcome to the forum......

Depending on whether it's right or left hand threaded, it will be a challenge to find a "new", uncut, counterbored extractor.

The bright side is, there are microwelders like Tony South at Micro Precision Welding who can restore the ratchets to a "like new" condition, so that they can be re-cut/re-fit to the gun. Many old and worn parts for which new replacements are impossible to find can be restored like this.

 

[Nightowl]

My guess it would be pretty hard to find a new extractor for a pre 28, one that old will have the right hand threads. Even finding a new extractor for a -2 might not be easy. The factory has not made them in nearly 40 years. However, if it works fine, there is little need for a new extractor. Usually, you only need to replace the hand with a wider one to correct any timing issues. This is a delicate operation that should be performed by one who is trained and has the right tools.

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum! Congrats on your new acquisition.

Since your asking about getting the new part, I presume you want to install it, i.e., work on your own gun.

Although you're not having problems, here's a little very simple maintenance you can do to tune it up before you do have problems:


CARRY UP SUMMARY:

When the cylinder is a few thousandths short of advancing completely to lock up, known as "carry up", peening the teeth to 'upset' metal on the extractor star is much simpler than finding and fitting a new hand.

The hand is made of harder steel than the teeth since it has six times the contacts of each tooth, and this is a typical result after many rounds of shooting. That's why I would not install a new hand, it already has the advantage.

With the cylinder open in a vertical position, use a flat tipped punch to very gently peen each of the offending teeth of the 6 ratchet teeth on the rear vertical surface of the edge contacted by the hand. One tap on each tooth will usually do it and the gun will function perfectly for another 20+ years. I've fixed so many that way I can't count them.

You've already correctly assessed excessive cyl end play (and/or yoke end play). These should be addressed before any peening is attempted. Also be sure that neither the trigger or hammer stud is not loose or broken, or that the extractor rod or particularly the yoke are true and not bent.

I have more detail if you're interested.

NOTE ON SIDE-TO-SIDE CYL PLAY:

Make sure the edges of the cylinder notches are not burred out or the cyl bolt can pop out of the notch. Gentle peening of the notch edges can fix that as well. "Tight lock up" is fine, but can be over emphasized. Recognize the cyl needs some play for the bullet to align the chamber to the barrel, the job of the forcing cone.

When looking at the back of the cylinder ratchets on the extractor star: the tooth to work on is at about 3 o'clock. The offending chamber is the next one to be rotated up to the 12 o'clock position:

Most of all, enjoy working on it.

 

[mjmarinara]

Wow this is funny this is my first post too and this conversation is from yesterday!

I by no means mean to hijack however I'm having a very similar issue. I also have a late 1954 5 Screw Highway Patrolman and after a hunting trip this weekend I have found that it has a timing issue on two cylinders. Seems to be spitting a bit of lead and not locking up before the hammer fully cocks.

The extractor rod is slightly bent, I tried to straighten it in a drill press with a dial indicator but got nervous banging on it. The right hand thread ones are available but they are about six times the cost of a left hand thread so I wanted to be sure if this could be affecting the timing before I purchase. I had fixed a bit of a shake with a .005 shim, However the barrel cylinder gap seems to vary throughout the rotation.

I recently picked up a 1966 28-2 to try to take some mileage off of the five screw, I shoot some IDPA and have read of the damage of rapid double action on the older N frames, however now I intend to give the five screw to my father for Christmas but don't want to give him an out of time gun!

Just spoke to Smith & Wesson, they don't work on guns older than 58. I was looking at replacement extractor rods and stars like you but right hand or left hand thread ones all the same seems to be very hard to find. I also am interested in learning about peening the extractor star ratchet. I was also thinking of trying tonight to put the left-hand thread 28-2 star and rod on the five screw, see if I can retrofit it and track a replacement set of those down.

This five screw is my favorite handgun I've ever owned I would really love to get it in good shape again. Does anyone think the $60 extractor rod would solve a slight timing issue on two cylinders and maybe correct the variance in the barrel cylinder gap?

Thank you so much for the input I hope we can both resolve our issues and look forward to the conversation!

P.S. tried to post pictures of my two Highway Patrolmans but having difficulty, maybe later I will figure it out!

 

[armorer951]

mjmarinara, welcome to the forum.....

As pointed out above, the proper way to repair your timing issue is to fit and install a slightly wider hand, or to have the ratchets micro-welded and re-cut to your existing configuration. Peening will not last, is not something the factory would do or recommend to "repair" this issue.

With regards to the runout on the extractor rod, this is not due to the rod being bent, but is due to irregularities in the interface of the ex. rod, extractor rod collar and the extractor stem when they are tightened together. This threaded connection is difficult to get straight with zero runout, particularly when there is a collar between the two threaded parts. A new extractor rod will not likely have the desired effect. Sometimes, part of this runout can be eliminated by simply un-tightening and re-tightening the extractor rod assembly.

The differences in the barrel/cylinder gap you reported are likely due to the yoke being slightly misaligned, or just wear and tear on the yoke/cylinder assembly. Tools and gauges to determine and repair yoke mis-alignment are available from Brownells, and other vendors.

If you are interested in learning more about your revolver, I would suggest J. Kuhnhausen's excellent shop manual on the S&W's. (5th Edition) Lots of valuable and correct information and illustrations concerning maintenance and repair of these guns.

 

[mjmarinara]

Thank you Armorer, I have been looking into getting a copy of J. Kuhnhausen's writings.


I should also note slight peening burrs on the cylinder stop notches, and a slightly tighter double action trigger pull on two chambers, though not the ones experiencing carry up issues.



I wasn't sure if an oversized hand was the cure as the timing is only amiss in two chambers, however I may have to go down that road, I hope the hand is the same from pre-number to -2's!


Do you guys think a five screw should be retired from IDPA use, If I have timing issues again down the road after an oversized hand then what! Maybe just run some of my K frames and keep the wear off the old N frame? It'd be a drag because I do love shooting this fine revolver, hey maybe I'll just shoot the snot out of the 28-2 and save the 5 screw for my father, after timing resolved....


Attached a few pics of the Highway Patrolman and one with it along my great uncle's service issued 10 and 36

 

[Hondo44]

NOTE ON SIDE-TO-SIDE CYL PLAY:

"Tight lock up" is fine, but can be over emphasized. Recognize the cyl needs some play for the bullet to align the chamber to the barrel, which is the job of the forcing cone. Make sure the edges of the cylinder notches are not burred out or the cyl bolt can pop out of the notch. Gentle peening of the notch edges can fix that as well.


Hard cocking is usually the front face of the cyl rubbing on the forcing cone. Cyl end play should always be assessed and corrected first.

Open cyl, push the cyl release thumb piece to the rear, and try the hammer double action. If you no longer have hard cocking, the issue involves the cyl.

This can be from cyl run-out that you mentioned in your first post. Watch the cyl/bar gap light space from the side while cocking the hammer to check for rub marks on the face of the cyl. The hard cocking will be worse once the bar/cyl heat up from firing.

If the yoke axis is not running true, but the cyl face is true, the rubbing will be all the way around the cyl, not just in two spots.

 

[OutWest50]

I keep some hands in stock and have had the need to replace a few over the years, mainly on the magnums. One thing to note regarding the new hands that I have: standard size hands thickness varies from .093" to .095" among the hands. The oversize hands that I have vary from .098"-.0995". I haven't yet had a gun that was worn so much that installation of the oversize hand was necessary, but I keep a few oversize in stock just in case.

As recently as yesterday I replaced a hand on a 28-2 that had a slight carry up timing issue on 4 cylinders. The hand that was in the gun measured .093". My "new" hand measured .0945" and required that I stone the inside of the hand until width was .094" to get the proper fit for the ratchet lugs as well as to allow proper clearance within the frame slot. Now, during double action pull all 6 cylinders index in well before the hammer drops.

Just a suggestion ..... try a new standard sized hand before determining that you need an oversized hand which will require that the frame slot be widened. When possible .... less is more.

 

[BigBill]

Welcome to one of the top gun forums on the net for s&w's.

At, www.e-gunparts they might have what your looking for.

I lube the hands and the rear star of the cylinder with a moly as well as every metal to metal contact moving part.

 

[steelslaver]

First even if you could find a new ratchet it probably would not fit correctly anyway. The 2 little pins were match drilled with star in place and seldom allow another ratchet to fit them good enough to slidee on them and come flat to the cylinder face. This can be dealt with in a couple different ways. But unless it is really damaged it is unnecessary to replace it. On a gun with endshake I would fix the end shake first. The cylinder and of course ratchet being held closer to the hand may well cure your carry up problem. If you do get it all adjusted out, replace the hand etc you and take care of the gun it should give you 10s of thousands more rounds before it is in need again

If the Barrel to cylinder gap gets tighter and looser as the cylinder advances I doubt it is the yoke tube. The yoke tube isn't moving and it remains closed in place while the cylinder turns on it. Therefore the face of the cylinder is more apt to be the problem or possibly the center bore of the cylinder being slightly off. If the yoke or its tube are out of line the cylinder will spin out of line on it during its entire rotation.

I have a 5 screw Highway Patrolman that must have had a lot of rounds though it. Lot of end shake, rotational movement, face of recoil shield shiny case head wear in every spot. Some end shake bushings, some peening on the cylinder stop notches and it works fine could fire lots more butter smooth rounds.