Primer comparison question

[glowe]

. . . It can get ugly.

Here is another learning experience. Can you tell us more about the accident? I am curious how a slam fire in a semi-auto rifle can cause the damage you show in your picture? I can only assume that the round went off before the bolt went into battery? Sorry for the loss of a fine rifle!

 

[fredj338]

Reading primers is kind of a voodoo thing. They all vary in cup hardness. Federal will "flatten" sooner than others but honestly, most reloaders have no idea what a true flattened primer looks like. These are marginally flattened. Not mine just a pic I pulled off the net. A serious flattened primer has no edge at all. I see them on the range sometimes, 9mm major usually.

 

[yeti]

I think there is some confusion when many of us say 'softer cup' or 'thinner cup' when it is really the whole primer working as a system. For me the bottom line seems to be...
Is the primer easier to set off than another brand of same group style?
In my experience the answer is, yes. FED100 sets off much easier than the others.
Here is my ranking of standard small pistol primers from easiest - hardest to set off. Feel free to disagree, but this is what I think based on use.

Federal
Winchester
Fiocchi
Remington
Tula
CCI

 

[old tanker]

Here is another learning experience. Can you tell us more about the accident? I am curious how a slam fire in a semi-auto rifle can cause the damage you show in your picture? I can only assume that the round went off before the bolt went into battery? Sorry for the loss of a fine rifle!

Not my rifle, was only on the range when it happened. It appears bolt was not fully closed when the rifle went off. The story from the shooter was he had loaded a round into the chamber and hit the bolt release and it went off. It was the fourth or fifth round in the string.

High primer, soft primer, broken firing pin? I do not know for certain.

 

[bigedp51]

Head clearance or the amount of "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face can also effect how the primer looks. The first thing that happens when the cartridge fires is the primer moves to the rear and out of the primer pocket. The next thing that happens as the chamber pressure reaches maximum the case is forced to the rear until it contact the bolt face. This action can cause the primer to become mushroom shaped with sharper edges when it is reseated when the case contacts the bolt face.

NOTE, your head clearance is caused by the amount of shoulder bump, rim thickness and the firearms headspace.

Below the amount of expansion just above the rim or extractor groove will tell you how much pressure the case can take. It is not a indication of pressure as much as the elastic limits of the brass meaning its strength.

Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads
Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads | Hodgdon Reloading

Another example below from the Accurate shooter reloading forum. This competitive shooter increased the load until he had brass flow into the ejector. He then backed off the load 1 to 2 grains knowing the elastic limits of that brand of case. This brass flow corresponds with the case base expansion.

Bottom line, you have primer cup thickness and hardness which effects how much the primer flattens. And also how far the primer backs out of the primer pocket that effects primer flattening.

 

[cmj8591]

Sometimes a lighter than normal hammer spring can contribute to flattened primers. Looking at your photo, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

 

[yeti]

I look at fired primer flattening to indicate higher pressures than I like. Knowing even reduced loads make the Federal primers indicate a higher pressure that they have to be operating under, I have come to the conclusion that the Federal primers (being reportedly softer than others) just indicate higher pressure than other primers do, like Winchester or CCI.

A false reading, if you will.

They are not completely flattened, just more so than normal it seems. Is that a common occurrence with Federal primers?

If so, I may just use the remainder of these 1000 for my reduced loads, and get some CCI primers to help me better judge when I am reaching higher pressures with faster loads.

From the photo I don't think you have an issue either, but you really should get a chrono.

 

[DWalt]

"Here is my ranking of standard small pistol primers from easiest - hardest to set off. Feel free to disagree, but this is what I think based on use.

Federal
Winchester
Fiocchi
Remington
Tula
CCI"

Do you have any hard evidence to support what you think? If you do, you will be the first one who has ever posted anything like this here. If someone can provide some substantiated published lab results from a reliable source instead of guesswork, parroted anecdotal stories, or old wives' tales, maybe I'll believe it. Otherwise, I don't. And no one else should either.

 

[Wise_A]

Anybody know why Federal small pistol primers are so hard to find ??

Not hard to find at all, m8. I have 2k right on my shelves downstairs

I liked them for DA shooting with my Target Masterpiece, which can be a little picky, but it's a much-loved gun so rather than ask it to change I simply use the primers that work when it gets cranky. I walked into one reloading shop perhaps a year ago, and they had no Fed Smalls at all (whereas previously, they had plenty).

Next shop I walked into, same day, I asked how many the guy had. He said, "Two bricks," and I said, "I'll take 'em."

Haven't seen any since.

 

[rwsmith]

Some imported primers......

Some imported primers have been known to be very soft, or thin, or however you want to put it.

I think that there is some difference in domestic primers, but it doesn't seem to be different enough to make much difference.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It would be nice if the OP would come back and be part if the discussion.

My question is, which cartridge you are loading and which powder and charge weight was used with what weight bullet?

 

[chief38]

I've used CCI, Federal, Winchester and Remington Primers all with excellent results. Assuming price's are about the same I like the Federal the best - I just dislike their "shoe-box" style of packing them. I try to stay away from Winchester, (not because they don't work well, they do) but because they no longer Nickel plate them and I like the look of Nickeled Primers. That said, during times of Primer scares and hoarding, I have bought some Winchester Primers just because they are one only ones I could get at the time.

Any gun in proper condition should work equally well with any of the 4 major brands. If your tuned (action & trigger job) gun fails to set off any of them (CCI's are considered the toughest) then your hits are too light and is not the Primer's fault.

 

[Rule3]

It would be nice if the OP would come back and be part if the discussion.

My question is, which cartridge you are loading and which powder and charge weight was used with what weight bullet?

and perhaps close up 8x10 color glossy photos of the primers?

 

[johngalt]

A picture of primers fired in my 929. I was quite concerned
I normally don't post my loads. But, these were, a 147 gr. xtreme plated .356 bullet,, with 3.5 grs. of Bullseye,, Federal SP primers, 1.135 OAL averaged 853 fps out of the 929.
I usually used only Winchester brass in the 929,, but tried different brass to see if it made a difference.

Never had any problems with them ,, but it sure flatten the primers in the revolver.

I don't have a picture of the same load shot out of my autos. But the primers were not flatten at all, and average 950 fps out of my autos.

I also have other firearms that uses moonclips and rimless cartridges and have never noticed the primers this flat?

I've seen flattened primers like that in my .45 auto, shooting 185 gr LSWC + 3.9 gr Bullseye, Federal primers. Obviously a light target load, probably under 10,000 psi. That is one if the reasons I think primer appearance is irrelevant in pistols.

 

[old&slow]

Not hard to find at all, m8. I have 2k right on my shelves downstairs

I liked them for DA shooting with my Target Masterpiece, which can be a little picky, but it's a much-loved gun so rather than ask it to change I simply use the primers that work when it gets cranky.

Haven't seen any since.

I'm down to 2K Federal SP and 1700 Federal LP primers..
Getting really low,, . Time to find & buy a sleeve or two of each. But haven't seen any in months and months.
I was using Federal LR Match in my long guns. Can't find any of those either. So I started using CCI BR2,, accuracy and velocity about the same as Fed. LR Match.

My autos aren't that picky about primers but a couple of my revolvers can be. So, rather than different ammo for each individual firearm, I prefer to have one or two ammo cans per caliber that will work in all of them.
When I had the S&W 929, I had a separate ammo can for it because I was only using Winchester brass with it and kept the brass separate,, what a pain.

 

[old&slow]

Information on small pistol primer hardness.
No need for members of the Flat Earth Society to read.

( edit : OOpphs ,, I had a link to the web site . but the report has a copy right warning , do not distribute warning ,, etc. So if you want to read it,, guess you will just have to find it yourself,, but you might do a search on 'small pistol primer hardness' and check for a PDF under, fwtac )

Federal
Remington Winchester ( tied )
PPU
CCI
Tula

( refer back to post #23 ,, Yeti has it right..)

edit: rifle primer info, Primers and Pressure Analysis within AccurateShooter.com

 

[Rule3]

Thanks for the "link"

After reading that so called test I can find a lot of faults in their"scientific method" Their "anvil test" proves nothing. The size of the indent means nothing Primers ignite by a sharp blow, not a sustained "push" How was the indent measured, just by "visual"?

The actual force needed to indent the primer to cause it to fire would be more relevant. There are tests out there that use such measurement but not worth the bandwidth to search for.

As to the test firearm with a modified spring?? I'll just leave that alone.

The can copyright their stuff all they want!

 

[Tom S.]

I can't speak for Federal's current crop of primers, but I can remember back when Lee ans 'maybe' Dillon recommended they not be used in their progressives due to their sensitivity. Of course I didn't read this until I actually had three of them go off in a Lee 1000. Whether it was true or not, it made a believer out of me, and I switched to using mostly Winchester brand.

 

[Troystat]

Just to add to the confusion, I think the firearm itself can cause a flattening of the primer. I was at the range the other day and a guy was shooting what I believe was a Desert Eagle in 357 with Federal factory loads and the primers looked just like the ones in several of these pictures. If those rounds where my reloads and shot in my S&W model 27 I would have thought "oh these are loaded a little hot". I would definitely not use the flattening of a primer as my first sign of a load being to hot. Now where is my shovel I need to load some w296 for my 357

 

[steelslaver]

Thanks for the "link"

After reading that so called test I can find a lot of faults in their"scientific method" Their "anvil test" proves nothing. The size of the indent means nothing Primers ignite by a sharp blow, not a sustained "push" How was the indent measured, just by "visual"?

Actually this is how Brinell testing is done. It is one of the more accurate ways of testing hardness and is done by using a ball fired on an surface with a set force. (A sharp blow). Then the size of the indent is compared using an optical comparitor to a set of know hardness indents and the size of indent that the test indent makes corresponds to the objects hardness. This is a very scientific test of hardness with very repeatable results.

As to how hard to ignite a primer maybe not due to possible variances in primer compounds and maybe anvil construction. Though, I doubt primer compounds or anvils vary that much. But, as far as how hard it is to dent and then flatten a brand of primer when it is recoiled into the face of the recoil shield, bolt face or what have you, it would be very accurate.