Speak to the officers of your club. I am an officer of a conservation club with trap, rifle, pistol, archery, and fishing in the river. If your club has officers, they will be legally responsible in the insurance company's veiw. We pay a few thou every year for liability insurance. If you have no officers and no one is "in charge", then you in a tough spot. If this were to happen at our range, it would be dealt with.
Problem Older Gent at Our Club Range
- Thread starter steamloco76
- Start date
cmort666
Member
As would it at ours.
A few years ago, we had a doctor join the club. One night he showed up and began acting strangely, even dropping his firearm on the range. One of the range officers approached him and smelled liquor on his breath.
The range officer disarmed him and sent him home. He then called the board of directors who held an emergency meeting at which they voted to expel the doctor and refund his dues.
Shortly thereafter, there was a news story about a doctor arrested for being passed out drunk by the side of the interstate, with a loaded handgun in the passenger compartment (and no CHL).
We dodged a bullet on that one.
Doug M.
Member
Not familiar with legal options in your state, but I can tell you that this is a time urgent matter. Several things need to happen at pretty much the same time.
1) The club officers need to be forced to meet and address the club's portion of this ASAP. What they can do is almost certainly terminate his membership and end his lawful ability to be at the property. My guess is it will not keep him away, but will increase leverage.
2) A very good presentation about all that is happening needs to be prepared for your local LE. Involve a shift supervisor. Sometimes the facts of a case like this are not well enough communicated to the field folks for whatever reason (poor explanation to dispatch, poor explanation from dispatch; it doesn't matter). In addition, such cases can be a real pain in the pants to handle, and even if the time resources are there (a growing problem in many places is the need to triage the calls), there can be a temptation to pencil whip something like this.
3) Find and educate the family member(s) most likely to be responsive and responsible. A lot of folks don't want to hear bad news, so you may not be wasting breath only because you had to exhale anyway.
This is a already a sad tragedy, as a man's life fades out in a fog. Addressing this will not be fun. However, that is nothing compared to the tragedy that is easily foreseeable if something effective is not done immediately.
1) The club officers need to be forced to meet and address the club's portion of this ASAP. What they can do is almost certainly terminate his membership and end his lawful ability to be at the property. My guess is it will not keep him away, but will increase leverage.
2) A very good presentation about all that is happening needs to be prepared for your local LE. Involve a shift supervisor. Sometimes the facts of a case like this are not well enough communicated to the field folks for whatever reason (poor explanation to dispatch, poor explanation from dispatch; it doesn't matter). In addition, such cases can be a real pain in the pants to handle, and even if the time resources are there (a growing problem in many places is the need to triage the calls), there can be a temptation to pencil whip something like this.
3) Find and educate the family member(s) most likely to be responsive and responsible. A lot of folks don't want to hear bad news, so you may not be wasting breath only because you had to exhale anyway.
This is a already a sad tragedy, as a man's life fades out in a fog. Addressing this will not be fun. However, that is nothing compared to the tragedy that is easily foreseeable if something effective is not done immediately.
Bob R
US Veteran
I had to look at you location and make sure we didm't live in the same town.
bob
Cooter Brown
Member
I think all this is spot on.
If the family were seeing things as they really are, or if they do see and had the strength to deal with it, it would not be an issue.
Chances are, there are some in the family who would view an outsider involving the law and outside forces as a blessing. It saves them from having to confront the old man themselves. They may even be hoping for it.
Many people don't have the strength to handle a situation like this in a family, particularly with someone viewed as a patriarch.
Of course the worst thing would be if the family circles the wagons to protect the man.
Given the possibility of one of those scenarios being the case, it'd be best to leave the family out of it and go to the authorities. That negates both those scenarios.
Best of luck with all this, and whatever you do it should be done soon.
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joeintexas
US Veteran
It seems to me you have two problems here, one is to secure the range for everyone's safety and enjoyment the other is to help a fellow human being who is not in his right mind due to this terrible disease. At one time he might have been on this very forum talking about his love for this sport and sharing his knowledge of various firearms. Such a shame. I think your local police need to be involved and informed of his actions, his weapons need removed and he needs professional help and understanding. Hope it works out for you.
Stuff like this NEVER happens in New York. 
LedFowl
Member
Family and club members that he remembers clearly need to talk to him at his home and stop him somehow before there's trouble. Someone he feels is his better or equal needs to be among them.
Doug M.
Member
I thought about this some more and realized a possible reason for the lack of timely and useful LE response. He is not merely a "trespasser", assuming that he has in fact been banned from the property in a manner consistent with PA law. That will not get a rapid response, and may not get one at all, depending on call volume and priorities.
What this has to be described as is an armed trespasser with mental problems, likely Alzheimer's, who has threatened persons legitimately present. That will get a response. HOWEVER: such an event has a high potential for (legitimate LE) violence. MH patients are sometimes far enough off the mark that they don't understand who the cops are and what they are doing, and that non-compliance will end badly. The only significant resistance I have encountered in LE has been from mental patients, and for exactly that reason. (Similarly, I have had some struggles with juveniles in court during my seven years as a juvenile court prosecutor in this state. Same sort of problem - they get agitated over what is pretty insignificant and have to be restrained, leading to a carpet therapy session. Only one adult offender presented that sort of problem during that time, and the most of 4 years in felony court since - this is two counties, since 2000.)
LE works on a straight forward path: ask, tell, make. The first two generally won't work with a mental patient, and then it all goes to Hell in a handcart. Add in the specifics of this fellow's behavior, and it is not hard to see a really bad outcome. Unfortunately, that sort of outcome involving a club member is already really easy to foresee, even worse, and completely unacceptable. (And yeah, it would be unfortunate if he ended up as "Swiss cheese", but that would not mean it was not justified. The legal standard is "reasonable" - not perfect, or even correct, when it comes to use of force. The facts as perceived by responding officers are all that matters - this old fellow's many productive years on the planet, and the perceptions of his friends and family have no meaning.)
What this has to be described as is an armed trespasser with mental problems, likely Alzheimer's, who has threatened persons legitimately present. That will get a response. HOWEVER: such an event has a high potential for (legitimate LE) violence. MH patients are sometimes far enough off the mark that they don't understand who the cops are and what they are doing, and that non-compliance will end badly. The only significant resistance I have encountered in LE has been from mental patients, and for exactly that reason. (Similarly, I have had some struggles with juveniles in court during my seven years as a juvenile court prosecutor in this state. Same sort of problem - they get agitated over what is pretty insignificant and have to be restrained, leading to a carpet therapy session. Only one adult offender presented that sort of problem during that time, and the most of 4 years in felony court since - this is two counties, since 2000.)
LE works on a straight forward path: ask, tell, make. The first two generally won't work with a mental patient, and then it all goes to Hell in a handcart. Add in the specifics of this fellow's behavior, and it is not hard to see a really bad outcome. Unfortunately, that sort of outcome involving a club member is already really easy to foresee, even worse, and completely unacceptable. (And yeah, it would be unfortunate if he ended up as "Swiss cheese", but that would not mean it was not justified. The legal standard is "reasonable" - not perfect, or even correct, when it comes to use of force. The facts as perceived by responding officers are all that matters - this old fellow's many productive years on the planet, and the perceptions of his friends and family have no meaning.)
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Alzheimers is a terrible disease and hard to accept when it hits a family member - particularly a parent. The kids really need to be made to understand that it is for their father's own safety that he be relieved of his firearms and kept, hate to say it, under control.
m1gunner
US Veteran
As you are asking for ideas, I will give you mine:
Make an appointment with your local District Attorney ( or assistant as is appropriate) and talk frankly with him about what is going on.
If you do this when nothing is happening at that minute, everyone has a chance to get their ducks in a row. If he is anything but a total jerk, he will go out of his way to help you.
I had a dangerous situation that was escalating, and this is exactly what I did. The asst. DA had 5 patrol units and 2 unmarked units in position to handle the "issue" and everything instantly de-escalated, and the problem got handled without any shooting, or anyone going to jail. Relatives were contacted, and everyone was involved in the solution. A judge or courtroom was never needed.
Good luck to the OP, and don't hesitate to ask your elected officials for help.
Make an appointment with your local District Attorney ( or assistant as is appropriate) and talk frankly with him about what is going on.
If you do this when nothing is happening at that minute, everyone has a chance to get their ducks in a row. If he is anything but a total jerk, he will go out of his way to help you.
I had a dangerous situation that was escalating, and this is exactly what I did. The asst. DA had 5 patrol units and 2 unmarked units in position to handle the "issue" and everything instantly de-escalated, and the problem got handled without any shooting, or anyone going to jail. Relatives were contacted, and everyone was involved in the solution. A judge or courtroom was never needed.
Good luck to the OP, and don't hesitate to ask your elected officials for help.
G.T. Smith
US Veteran
I think that everyone that has responded to this post are pretty much on the right track when they talk about involving family and friends and law enforcement. All that I can add is that this is one of the saddest things I've read in a long time. God bless him and all concerned. Keep us posted and let us know how this plays out. Pray for him tonight.
Peace,
gordon
Peace,
gordon
writerinmo
US Veteran
The situation should be handled by every means at your disposal. Family, friends, the club, the police... if it's an option, it should be explored. Otherwise, he may run into a person who isn't aware of any of the ongoing problems, who (as I probably would) simply defends themselves by shooting him when he jacks a shell into his rifle, thinking that their lives are in danger from the man, which could very possibly be true.
GatorFarmer
Member
I remember my grandmother was losing her mind. Even confined to a wheelchair at the nursing home, when she had her mind to it, it would take eight nurses or so to fight her down when she got violent. Couple times she'd manage to choke two or three of those eight out in the process. She was in her 80s. Spunky I guess.
In many states pointing a loaded rifle at someone (without reason to do so) is a felony in and of itself. Thus someone ought be able to make a complaint to the police about that action and not just a trespassing matter.
Most likely though... he'll either shoot someone or be shot himself. Or first one then the other.
In many states pointing a loaded rifle at someone (without reason to do so) is a felony in and of itself. Thus someone ought be able to make a complaint to the police about that action and not just a trespassing matter.
Most likely though... he'll either shoot someone or be shot himself. Or first one then the other.
redneckemt
Member
Notify all members of the club, explain the problem, and that the B.O.D. wants to help the gentleman. Post no tresspassing signs around the property. Notify the man in writing that he is banned from the property. The very next time he causes a problem, every member present go before a judge or magistrate and swear out a warrant. Tell the truth, but if he has a gun on him, make sure to mention fear for your life. He will be arrested and will have to go before the judge, a good defence lawyer should try to have the charges dropped due to mental illness. Whoever took out the warrant talks to the D.A. agreeing to the charges being dropped if the man seeks help, that ll get the ball rolling. If he doesn't fight the charges on the grounds of mental illness, it should be an easy conviction hopefully for a felony.
Also just wondering what your state laws are I m fairly sure in Tenn, an order of protection means no guns... might be the same in your state.
Also just wondering what your state laws are I m fairly sure in Tenn, an order of protection means no guns... might be the same in your state.
OP
Fellow forum members; you have replied with great insight to my posting of a difficult situation.
As of today, almost all members have been informed about the situation and were asked not to be confrontational with this man.I've only been a club member for a year, so the officers aren't keen on listening to an FNG's opinions. I suggested calling our county Sheriff as he is a staunch 2nd Amendment supporter and would help us in any way he could. The want to wait for the club IPSC/Cowboy Action/DCM shoots start next weekend. There are multiple local LEO's that attend these shoots. The club president and officers are going to talk the LEO's and see if they can get the problem handled without a big scandal hitting the local news.
The last time I went to the club, the old guy was sitting in his car in front of his house watching people go up and down the road. I hear he has been doing that for a couple of years. Just sitting in the car for hours on end. Dementia is a scary thing.
As of today, almost all members have been informed about the situation and were asked not to be confrontational with this man.I've only been a club member for a year, so the officers aren't keen on listening to an FNG's opinions. I suggested calling our county Sheriff as he is a staunch 2nd Amendment supporter and would help us in any way he could. The want to wait for the club IPSC/Cowboy Action/DCM shoots start next weekend. There are multiple local LEO's that attend these shoots. The club president and officers are going to talk the LEO's and see if they can get the problem handled without a big scandal hitting the local news.
The last time I went to the club, the old guy was sitting in his car in front of his house watching people go up and down the road. I hear he has been doing that for a couple of years. Just sitting in the car for hours on end. Dementia is a scary thing.
bitstream
Member
It is a scary thing. My grandmother got Alzheimer's and once got lost in her own bathroom and didn't know how to get out (she had lived in that house for about 50 years...).
Best of luck with it all. Again, I would heavily suggest making sure you have some kind of video camera with audio (e.g. a cellphone) with you when you are there. If anything happens, immediately record it.
It is a tough disease to deal with. Even from a FNG, the club should recognize the need to act. I would recommend that he be retired as a member and give him a plaque honoring his service to the club so he can remember and fix on it. This will keep the club in good graces with the family, community and neighbors. I would also call 911 if I was threatened and not leave until an officer showed up. Someone has to act.
Moonman
Member
The Club Officers or Executive Board should have acted LEGALLY upon this situation already. The continued wait could possibly lead to willful negligence upon the clubs part if an unfortunate incident would occur. JMHO.
David LaPell
Member
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I would talk to whom ever runs the club, and then get a couple of trail cams. It took that to finally get a trespasser on my own property arrested. Nothing like photos. But for the immediate problem, well that's tougher. I would call the local constabulatory when he arrives and tell them that there is someone with a gun threatening me. I know they should respond in a timely manner, but we all know how these things can go, slowly. I know me though, one of the reasons I quit my local range was because we had a few problems with some members acting like horses backsides. We had one member for a while showing up when other members were shooting and was packing a sidearm asking questions about membership. But it sounds to me like your club needs to take some drastic steps before something bad does happen.
Beaver
Member
Sooner than later
I think something should be done NOW. Don't think anymore, get a restraining order, or a group of men and do something now. The potential for disaster is real. Our shooting and gun owning culture doesn't need any more fuel for the fire. If he was drinking, or abusing med's, or driving crazy, we would step in quickly. You're going to hurt his feelings. Do something soon.
I think something should be done NOW. Don't think anymore, get a restraining order, or a group of men and do something now. The potential for disaster is real. Our shooting and gun owning culture doesn't need any more fuel for the fire. If he was drinking, or abusing med's, or driving crazy, we would step in quickly. You're going to hurt his feelings. Do something soon.
cowart
US Veteran
Here is the paperwork to start an involuntary commitment in Pennsylvania. Probably shoud not ask the family to do it, since they have not been helpful so far.
http://www.pitt.edu/~mercyres/302-forms.pdf
http://www.pitt.edu/~mercyres/302-forms.pdf
LedFowl
Member
I think about this thread every few days. Steamloco, is anything new? Has the situation been safely resolved?
It sounds like a powder keg situation.
The man's family should take possession of his guns immediately! That would be the quickest & kindest solution for all involved..including the soon to be Alzheimer patient .
If they won't handle it, then make the local authorities handle it. Waiting is not the answer.
The man's family should take possession of his guns immediately! That would be the quickest & kindest solution for all involved..including the soon to be Alzheimer patient .
If they won't handle it, then make the local authorities handle it. Waiting is not the answer.
charlie sherrill
Member
Before one can be committed there must be a committment hearing before a judge. The patient is picked up with a hearing order issued by a judge or court clerk based on an affidavit from an individual or individuals and placed in a secure facility until such time the hearing is held. The hearing usually happens within three days. If the judge at the hearing determines the patient needs more help than is available locally or on an outpatient basis he will then be sent to some kind of facility or state or private mental hospital for evaluation and treatment. The fastest way to get sent off is to mention suicide or threats to others with dangerous weapons.
Witnesses will be presented at this hearing. There will be a prosecutor type lawyer representing the state and a private or court appointed lawyer representing the patient. The patient will also be allowed to talk at this hearing and many times he talks himself into a hospital. The bottom line to your problem is: Find an attorney that knows his way around in committment hearings and get this guy committed. At the very least he will be put on record as possibly being a danger to his community and himself and at the very best they may actually find something that will help him.
Witnesses will be presented at this hearing. There will be a prosecutor type lawyer representing the state and a private or court appointed lawyer representing the patient. The patient will also be allowed to talk at this hearing and many times he talks himself into a hospital. The bottom line to your problem is: Find an attorney that knows his way around in committment hearings and get this guy committed. At the very least he will be put on record as possibly being a danger to his community and himself and at the very best they may actually find something that will help him.
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