Problem with 4506 Slide Stop

I think armorer951 nailed it in post #6.

The spring loaded plunger in the rear of your guide rod is what holds the slide stop in place and yours is binding and not protruding far enough.

Grab it with a pair of pliers and pull it out, lube it, re-insert it in the end of the guide rod and make sure it sticks out past the first ledge of the plunger and is springy.

John
 
I think armorer951 nailed it in post #6.

The spring loaded plunger in the rear of your guide rod is what holds the slide stop in place and yours is binding and not protruding far enough.

Grab it with a pair of pliers and pull it out, lube it, re-insert it in the end of the guide rod and make sure it sticks out past the first ledge of the plunger and is springy.

John


I've tried pulling as hard as I can and it won't budge. I may just buy a steel rod from Paul Howell.
 
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Just as a point of discussion, since I seem to have the parts sourced: I was searching on ebay and found a slide stop listed for a 745 that's identical to mine. Assuming (uh oh) that a stop for a 645 would be the same as a 745, I wonder if this is a 645/745 slide stop, mistakenly put on my gun and it's different than that for a 4506? It seems to stick out far too much from the frame, with very little engagement between the stop and the frame and there's no way to change that. The spec. just doesn't seem right.
 
As long as you're willing then let's overthink this some more...

According to the hand-written note I found from the gunsmith I got my parts from, the slide stop is the same for the 645, 745, 4506 (no dash), 4516 (no dash), and 4516-1. I have no way whatsoever of verifying this.

From an engineering standpoint (I started out many moons ago in marine engineering), the pivot post on the slide stop had a dimple in it where the end of the recoil spring guide rod rests. If this dimple is just slightly off, worn on one side, or the tip of the spring plunger in the guide rod is worn unevenly - and yours appears quite worn but I don't know the specs - then it could displace the slide stop laterally just a fraction, which would push the tab that catches the slide outward until the fault you originally describe occurs.

Also, if the bent end of the side plate assembly is angled outward slightly, then that would push the spring loaded plunger on the end of the slide catch outward as well (as shown in your second batch of photos) aggravating the same issue.

Of much less likelihood (MUCH less...), the whole slide stop could be deformed outward from excessive use, also aggravating this issue.

Impressed yet?

Regardless, the solution all seems to be the same - replace the slide stop and the side plate assembly. Possibly even the recoil spring guide rod plunger tip as well.

And after all that, I need a nap!
 
Regardless, the solution all seems to be the same - replace the slide stop and the side plate assembly. Possibly even the recoil spring guide rod plunger tip as well.

That's what I'm thinking

And after all that, I need a nap!

Sitting at this computer for a few hours on my Saturday was just what I wanted to do. :)

Bed time.
 
It's late and I'm not going to go out to the bench to pull my spare parts and start comparing them to the ones in my own 3rd gen .45's, but here's a couple thoughts to mull over.

In my first armorer class we were told the "gap" between the outside of the frame and the inside of the slide stop's lever ought to be such that a normal business card can slip under it, or even a folded (once) business card. Ideally, the gap ought to be uniform from front to back.

If a lever were to become too "tight" against the frame at the rear, the lever could drag on the frame and possibly interfere with the lever's freedom of movement.

Some occasional drag marks on a particular frame were said to be considered normal, and only cosmetic, if a lever's angle was on the tighter end of the normal tolerance range, as long as the lever's gap (with the frame) was even and the lever wasn't prevented from lifting when lifted by the mag follower, and would be pushed downward by normal tension between the front of the sideplate and the lever's plunger/spring (to prevent it from rising under recoil and causing early slide lock).

Too wide of a gap from the frame, though, and at some point the lever's plunger might jump outward, slipping off the outside of the sideplate. (Meaning the small angled plate formed at the front of the sideplate.)

The gap in one of your pics looks a bit wide (but it's just a pic, and I couldn't pretend to know without handling it and seeing it).

How can a slide stop lever become bent? Well, recoil forces travel through metal in all directions, and we were told that it was sometimes possible that a lot of use, and hot ammo, might sometimes cause a slide stop lever to eventually acquire an inward or outward bend. (This presumes someone hasn't actually damaged it, meaning bending it.)

The angle between the slide stop's lever and its (frame) pin ought to be 90 degrees. (Looking "down" on it, as it were.)

In my first 3rd gen armorer class we were told to keep an eye on the gap between the slide stop lever and frame, especially if we were shooting a lot of +P or +P+ loads (the discussion was about the 59XX series guns). If we came across a lever that had acquired an excessive inward or outward bend, we were shown how to put the lever assembly in a vise and whack it with a lead babbitt (NOT a hammer) to restore the 90 degree angle. :eek:

In subsequent classes that was changed to telling armorers to just replace a slide stop lever assembly that had acquired a bend. Reading between the lines, perhaps over time some slide stop assemblies ended up being needlessly (or simply improperly) beaten and mangled by inexperienced armorers, so the armorer training folks decided to simplify things and just tell armorers to replace them. (Ditto replacing the lever assembly if a lever's plunger and spring if they became damaged or corroded, while previously we'd been told to just drift the roll pin and replace a plunger and spring, and the plunger could be different, especially in the .40's.)

Now, the outside edge of the front curved shoulder of your slide stop lever almost appears peened and rolled over. See the normal clean and sharp line on the outside edge of the part of the slide stop in this image, in the circle?


That raised curved spot on the front of the lever rides on the inside of the lower edge of the slide and prevents the slide stop from drifting out of the frame unless the slide is retracted to the point where the slide stop can then clear the slide's notch (for disassembly). The 2 pics in your first post makes it appear badly peened.

How might that happen? Dunno. However, I'd almost wonder if a previous owner might not have known how to properly field-strip the gun, meaning he didn't properly position the front of the lever assembly within the slide's notch, and out of frustration he used heavy force (beat) on the right end of the pin, trying to move the assembly to the left to remove the slide stop.

Also, if you gently grasp the front angled plate of the sideplate between your thumb and index finger, can you gently wiggle it up and down? If it moves (more than a minimal amount, or a "hair"), it might be involved. This can mean one of the "prongs" of the sideplate's fork, which snap over the left (headed) end on the sear pin, is bent or snapped off. Time for a new sideplate.

The .45 slide stop levers made toward the end of 3rd gen production were either plain stainless, or blackened stainless (machined MIM) parts, if I remember right. They ought not need any "adjustment", and are considered "drop-in" assemblies, presuming they aren't damaged or out-of-spec, and if they function in the particular gun as intended when doing normal bench checks. (Sometimes in 'parts-is-parts' guns a particular part or assembly might not work normally in one gun, but might in many others.)

Oh yeah, don't go yanking on the plunger of the older 'staked' guide rods.

The plunger and spring could be easily removed from the newer style, 1-piece rods, but the old style 'staked' rods had a collar (staked to the rod) which contained the plunger and spring in the rod. Damage an earlier staked collar and it's time for a new rod assembly.

These pics show the difference in the older and the newer revised rod assemblies.

New rod on left, 2 older rods in middle and on right.


2 new style rods (different models/finishes), and this pic also has a plastic plunger used in some models for a while.


Sorry for the rambling, but these were just some late night thoughts in response to the thread. I'll try and check back tomorrow.

FWIW, now that the 3rd gen's have reached "obsolete" status, it's getting harder to find new parts, although it's apparently possible to find them now and again.
 
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Fastbolt, if I could I'd have your baby. :) Outstanding information.

I just measured the slide stop with a straight edge and it is bent, definitely not a true ninety degree angle. The side plate also has a bit of wiggle. Between you and Jon651, I think you've solved my problem.

The recoil spring was weak when I bought the gun. I wasn't surprised with a thirty year old gun and I replaced it immediately. The previous owner must have fired some hot loads, just never replaced the spring, or both.

See guys, I told you that guide rod spring wouldn't come out. :)

I can't express how much I appreciate everyone taking the time to help out with this.
 
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Just to be sure, after I got up this morning I inspected the parts I have for you. Using a drafting triangle, the angle between the pivot post and body of the slide catch I have is exactly 90 degrees so we should be good to go there. Then I test-fitted everything into my own 4506 and it all worked like a charm. Even though these are used parts and apparently your 4506 may be high mileage I'm hoping that it all works out regardless.

I'll head down to the Post Office and get them out for you on Monday.
 
Just to be sure, after I got up this morning I inspected the parts I have for you. Using a drafting triangle, the angle between the pivot post and body of the slide catch I have is exactly 90 degrees so we should be good to go there. Then I test-fitted everything into my own 4506 and it all worked like a charm. Even though these are used parts and apparently your 4506 may be high mileage I'm hoping that it all works out regardless.

I'll head down to the Post Office and get them out for you on Monday.

You're a lifesaver man. Check's in the male.
 
Fastbolt, if I could I'd have your baby. :) Outstanding information.

I just measured the slide stop with a straight edge and it is bent, definitely not a true ninety degree angle. The side plate also has a bit of wiggle. Between you and Jon651, I think you've solved my problem.

The recoil spring was weak when I bought the gun. I wasn't surprised with a thirty year old gun and I replaced it immediately. The previous owner must have fired some hot loads, just never replaced the spring, or both.

See guys, I told you that guide rod spring wouldn't come out. :)

I can't express how much I appreciate everyone taking the time to help out with this.

That explains the slide stop tab protruding out from the slide as I observed. It will never lock back that way. It has to ride under the slide.
 
Glad to hear someone's got the parts to send you.

Here's an older thread where I posted some pics and brief info about installing a sideplate without tweaking or damaging the plate's prongs, or legs. It's post #37 in the thread. http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...5906-i-broke-already.html?highlight=sideplate

I think I probably mention it in the linked thread, but the usual cause of a tweaked or broken leg on a sideplate is improper installation of a grip.

It's not uncommon for the front end of a sideplate to lift a bare amount from the outside of a frame, nor is it unusual for the end of the lever's plunger to engage the angled part of the sideplate at the bottom (when it's down in the normal position, with the slide forward).

I was so tired when I posted my previous thoughts that I forgot to mention another possible cause of your tweaked (outward) slide stop lever, which is that in addition to someone maybe having tried to force the front of the lever assembly by beating on the right end of the pin, they may have also tried to pry the rear half of the lever (like with a padded/taped screwdriver, etc) away from the frame, to remove it. (I'd just gotten in from a pleasant night at my cigar club, which had ended at midnight, and the drive home over the hill, after an afternoon with my granddaughter, had come close to wiping me out. :) Trying to organize my thoughts in writing at 0200hrs isn't a common occurrence for me anymore, now that I've been retired several years. )

Hope the new parts restore normal function to your 4506. It's a beast of a .45 pistol. ;)

Just for reference, if you use the factory recoil spring (and there's no reason not to, as they're good), this image offers some guidance from S&W in checking the free length. Remember that S&W offered both a standard spring (combat loads) and a light wadcutter spring (competition bunny fart loads).

If you use an aftermarket spring, though, it might be different. Their wire gauge, heat treat, number of coil windings and normal length might not be the same as the spring the factory uses, so the free length might not be comparable to try and estimate when a spring is "too short" or has become weakened. What you DON'T want to do is get an aftermarket spring that wasn't specifically designed for the 4506,and risk getting one that's too long. Like with a 1911, if you try to use a spring that's too long, it can stack solid before the slide has reached its rearward travel and the slide's dustcover can become damaged (cracked/broken).

Let us know how the "new" parts work. Luck.
 
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Again Fastbolt, outstanding information, thank you.

If this was a 1911, Browning High Power or even an S&W revolver I would have had it ironed out pretty quickly. These old S&W autos are a bit alien to me. The last thing I wanted to do was go diving in with a hammer and dremel and wind up being "that guy".

I was happy to find this piece of nostalgia and I was impressed with it's accuracy and overall handling.
 
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Again Fastbolt, outstanding information, thank you.

If this was a 1911, Browning High Power or even an S&W revolver I would have had it ironed out pretty quickly. These old S&W autos are a bit alien to me. The last thing I wanted to do was go diving in with a hammer and dremel and wind up being "that guy".

De nada.

There's some occasionally interesting tidbits I've picked up over the years. I attended 4 armorer classes for the 3rd gen's, and learned a lot more during many calls back to the factory to ask questions (as an armorer).

While I'm NOT a gunsmith, a factory engineering tech nor a factory repair tech, as a factory trained armorer I've probably learned enough to be able to disgnose many simple issues that can occur with the 3rd gen guns.

One of the factory guys who helped answer a lot of my questions over the years was one of the original folks involved in the AIP (Auto Improvement Program) when the 3rd gen's were being developed, and an early armorer instructor. He's retired now, but he offered some interesting insights into the occasional odd things I'd encountered over the years I was calling him. (Like the occasional factory "cut", or notch, on the 645's and some of the early 4506's, which could look like a crack in the rear of the slide's recoil spring box. I think he said they used to call it a "D cut", and it was done to give some room in the occasional slide for the barrel to be tipped during removal and installation in the slide. New guns benefited from a beveled spot, as machining capability improved. He was a fountain of interesting info. Lots of that institutional knowledge is retiring though, or has already retired. More's the pity.)

Feel free to use my listed email for simple questions, as my PM box fills up to the max limit all the time. Just let me know an email is coming and from what address (in case my spam filter diverts it).
 
That was a great deal you got on your parts . What are all the groove and lines marks on your slide stop ? that did not look good .
 
That was a great deal you got on your parts . What are all the groove and lines marks on your slide stop ? that did not look good .

If you are talking about the pivot post on the slide stop then I noticed that also. It almost looks like someone who didn't know how to field strip this pistol tried to "unscrew" the slide stop out of the frame while it was still under tension. None of mine have those marks.

Add that to the other marks pointed out by Fastbolt and it begins to make sense at to what may be the cause of this issue - or at least a contributing factor.
 
That was a great deal you got on your parts . What are all the groove and lines marks on your slide stop ? that did not look good .

Older machining methods. I've seen worse. :eek:
 
That was a great deal you got on your parts . What are all the groove and lines marks on your slide stop ? that did not look good .

Indeed. As the Godfather said, I got an offer I couldn't refuse. I wondered about those marks too. Having seen a lot worse on the inside of a pistol before, I put it down to being a Monday part.
 
I originally learned machining in a shop way back in 1983 when I was in college. Frankly, if I turned out something that looked like that I'd be too embarrassed to turn that piece in for a grade. It would have hit the scrap bucket and I would have tried again.
 
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