Protecting yourself while carrying lots of cash?

[ViperGeek]

I don't quite have this straight in my head, and so I've decided to query the experts on this forum.

Let's say part of your job is to take $10,000+ cash to the bank each evening for your retail establishment's nightly deposit. The store closes at midnight and there's a bit of a walk through a dimly lit parking lot. Armed with a CHL (NH) and an SD9 VE, you cautiously walk to your car each night, being situationally aware, as required for responsible concealed carry.

What happens next if a bad guy confronts you at gunpoint and demands your big sack with the $$$ on it? Everything I've read clearly states that you can protect yourself and loved ones from mortal harm, but cannot protect possessions or property. As a CCW holder, are you required to roll over, smile, and hand over the sack 'o cash to the bad guy?

I suspect Brinks armored car drivers can't simply hand over cash, so if the right answer is to smile and pay the bad guy, what's the difference in authority and authorization between a private citizen carrying cash vs. a Brinks employee carrying cash?

Thanks for your opinions and comments. This quandary is more for my wife than for me, so I'm really curious what to suggest.

- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.

 

[P&R Fan]

Before I answer your question, I have one for you. How are you carrying the cash? I hope it's not just in a clearly identifiable bank bag. At the very least I would put it in a grocery sack, whether paper or plastic. Best not to advertise.
You are absolutely right that the use of deadly force is not allowed to protect property. And, really, is the business you work for's 10 grand worth risking your life for? Of course not. If I were confronted by a robber I would produce my weapon and order them away. Most bad guys will not expect resistance, at least not armed resistance. If they vacate the area, you win. If they decide to fight, or have the means, intent and opportunity to do you harm, then it's time to fight back.
Really, what happens in this scenario depends on the bad guy's actions. You just have to be ready.
Stay safe.
Jim

 

[s&wchad]

I don't know Florida law, but if someone pulls a gun on you I'm sure you're justified in using deadly force. Having said that, going for your gun when someone has the jump on you could possibly be the last mistake you'll ever make. I'd hand over the cash and pray they didn't shoot me.

Shooting them as they're leaving will probably get you in trouble.

 

[Beejabbers]

Seems to me if he has you at gunpoint, it is too late to do anything but comply. You can look for an opportunity to draw and shoot, but; unless the opportunity arises you have to hope he takes the money and runs. If you do draw and shoot, I seems to me it would be justified since you have no idea what the perp might do after he gets the money. There is a risk either way.

 

[ViperGeek]

Thanks for the quick reply.

You are correct. In theory, the cash would be in one of those bank deposit leather zip bags, itself in another nondescript bag. It's definitely not obvious to the casual observer that my wife is carrying cash. Having said that, the best thieves would do some sort of pattern matching or trend analysis to determine which late-night managers might be carrying the night's deposits.

My wife and I have our CHL, and I've been concealed-carrying for a few weeks, but she has not. Once or twice, she's gotten that "bad feeling" walking out to her car and is thinking of carrying her 9mm for personal protection during closes. I've read all the local NH RSAs regarding deadly force and self defense, but I wanted to give her the best advice possible before she considers carrying while also carrying lots of cash, which is why I came up with this theoretical worst-case scenario.

Thanks again.

- Dave

 

[ViperGeek]

Excellent points about it being too late, once you're at gunpoint. At that point, the best advice is to make nice and hand over the loot.

I suspect the general consensus will be, "It depends." Depends on the circumstance, the dynamic of the interaction, the determination of mortal danger, etc. I like my wife, for the most part, so the safest course of action may be the best recommendation.

- Dave

 

[venomballistics]

in this situation ... you shoot ... the perp is armed.

 

[vytoland]

if the $$ come out at midnight each time, a pattern for the BG is easy to establish. you best have that get away car parked right up close to the door at the very least.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Dimly lit? Is your car the only one in the lot?

I would use the bag as a decoy. Bag and car keys in one hand and gun in the other obscured by the bag. Stuff the money bag in your pants or jacket pocket.

It would be ideal to have no bag at all. Conceal the money bag on your person. Pocket carry a gun either pants or jacket. Even if it means buying a compact.

If that situation you need to be armed without being armed if you know what I mean. And a good flashlight too.

 

[SurgicalShark]

I don't know Florida law, but if someone pulls a gun on you I'm sure you're justified in using deadly force. Having said that, going for your gun when someone has the jump on you could possibly be the last mistake you'll ever make. I'd hand over the cash and pray they didn't shoot me.

Shooting them as they're leaving will probably get you in trouble.

Florida Law... STAND YOUR GROUND!
Now having said that,
I agree with you, if someone has the drop on you, priority one is personal safety, give up the money its not yours, it would be a damn shame to die over it. And most definitely shooting while they are escaping will put you in big trouble, unless you're returning shots fired.

S&W M&P FS 9/357/40/45, 40PRO, 40C, 22LR

 

[scout]

If someone has you at gunpoint, you are in mortal danger.

Besides some of the avoidance/risk minimization suggestions above, if someone already has a gun on her, your wife's safest move might be to throw the cash on the ground and run.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Your post raises a few questions:

1. Where do you live?
2. Where do you work?
3. What are your hours?
4. What time do you leave?
5. Where do you park your car?
6. What is the address of the bank?

With this information, and a brief surveillance trip, I think I can figure out answers to your questions! Please respond by PM or e-mail; I hate competition in this type of business.

 

[The Big D]

If your employer mandates you carry $10K PLUS CASH through a "dimly lit" parking lot after midnight I would suggest several options:
1. Delay cash delivery until a.m. hours.

2. Drop safe in business.

3. Armored car cash pickup.

4. New job.

Be safe.

I don't quite have this straight in my head, and so I've decided to query the experts on this forum.

Let's say part of your job is to take $10,000+ cash to the bank each evening for your retail establishment's nightly deposit. The store closes at midnight and there's a bit of a walk through a dimly lit parking lot. Armed with a CHL (NH) and an SD9 VE, you cautiously walk to your car each night, being situationally aware, as required for responsible concealed carry.

What happens next if a bad guy confronts you at gunpoint and demands your big sack with the $$$ on it? Everything I've read clearly states that you can protect yourself and loved ones from mortal harm, but cannot protect possessions or property. As a CCW holder, are you required to roll over, smile, and hand over the sack 'o cash to the bad guy?

I suspect Brinks armored car drivers can't simply hand over cash, so if the right answer is to smile and pay the bad guy, what's the difference in authority and authorization between a private citizen carrying cash vs. a Brinks employee carrying cash?

Thanks for your opinions and comments. This quandary is more for my wife than for me, so I'm really curious what to suggest.

- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Decades ago I was visiting a detective friend in a large city and he took me on a tour. He pointed out a "bag lady" with a shopping cart and, inside, a large paper bag. He asked me if I had any idea what was in that bag. It was money, thousands of dollars, being carried from betting parlors in bars to the mobs HQ. Everyone knew what was in the bag; however, don't even think of touching it. If you did, at best you'd spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair. Now that's crime prevention.

 

[ViperGeek]

Your post raises a few questions:

1. Where do you live?
2. Where do you work?
3. What are your hours?
4. What time do you leave?
5. Where do you park your car?
6. What is the address of the bank?

With this information, and a brief surveillance trip, I think I can figure out answers to your questions! Please respond by PM or e-mail; I hate competition in this type of business.

PM sent, CC Local PD.

- Dave

ps. Point taken, although much of this is theoretical.

 

[RandomMan]

If your wife must do night deposits, I suggest she ask the company to provide her with a designated parking space near the front of the store, marked "Employees only" or something fairly innocuous. I would further suggest she or her supervisor contact the local PD and explain the situation and ask if the officers on patrol in that area can make a regular drive by as she leaves the store (very easy if she leaves at a regular time), if they are not on call. If her retail area has a security company that does patrols, even better as they will almost always be able to patrol the area at that time.

When I worked in retail, we had an incident with a girl involving her abusive boyfriend in our parking lot. I talked with a local officer who regularly did patrol and he noted the time we roughly got out of work and would cruise by around that time every night, if he wasn't on a call, and check us out.

If your wife's vehicle has remote start and remote door locks, it could also help. A parking spot that is in the better lit area close to the store. She starts the car from inside the store, exits and locks up, keeping her head on a swivel. Walks quickly to her car, opens the doors, 5 or 6 feet away, steps inside, and immediately locks her doors, seat belt, car in gear, gone.

-Rob

 

[Fishinfool]

Frankly, your wife's employer is putting her in a bad situation. If they were half way responsible, they would at least contract a local security service to escort her to the bank. If that's not an option, most local police departments would probably be inclined to escort her, barring other higher priority calls. A drop safe located in the store is a good idea, not much money, and probably an insurance rate reduction as well.

Larry

 

[ViperGeek]

I really appreciate all the general safety suggestions about doing night deposits. Although this was more of a theoretical situation (ie. "Can I shoot someone who wants my sack o' cash?"), your advice about being safe is well taken. She has, on occasion, asked a guard from the private security company to walk her out to her car, and while parking options are limited, she always parks under a street light and tries to remain situationally aware of her surroundings.

I love this forum. There's always several members more than willing to share helpful, sensible advice. That's one of the reasons I'm a Bronze Contributor.

Thanks again!

- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.

 

[Poodle Soup]

What happens next if a bad guy confronts you at gunpoint and demands your big sack with the $$$ on it? Everything I've read clearly states that you can protect yourself and loved ones from mortal harm, but cannot protect possessions or property

If hes pointing the gun at YOU that means he is willing to kill you. Its one of the big gun rules. Never point a gun at anything your not willing to destroy which means your life IS in danger. Now if hes pointing the gun at the giant canvas bag of cash with the big green dollar sign that Im picturing in my head then no, it would not be justified : )

 

[66Park]

If confronted with that situation, I would give them the money. It's tough when they already have a gun on you. From personal experience, I can tell you, though, that even if you comply with everything they ask of you, they may very well still try to kill you. You don't have to give them a reason. Your having seen them is reason enough. Every situation is different, but I'd look for an opening to get my gun. They've already threatened your life (in my opinion - I'm not familiar with the laws where you are) by pointing a gun at you, so you have justification.

 

[66Park]

I really appreciate all the general safety suggestions about doing night deposits. Although this was more of a theoretical situation (ie. "Can I shoot someone who wants my sack o' cash?"), your advice about being safe is well taken. She has, on occasion, asked a guard from the private security company to walk her out to her car, and while parking options are limited, she always parks under a street light and tries to remain situationally aware of her surroundings.

I love this forum. There's always several members more than willing to share helpful, sensible advice. That's one of the reasons I'm a Bronze Contributor.

Thanks again!

- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.

Yes, taking all possible steps to avoid the situation is your best bet. Once someone has a gun on you, you are in real deep trouble.

 

[S&WOkie]

In my humble opinion, the employer should provide an armed escort to the bank, or set up nightly pick up for the cash.

Leaving the same place, at the same time, going to the same destination, makes it just a matter of time before someone tries to get the cash.

I worked at a restaurant where this happened twice, in a short time, to the assistant managers who required to make deposits after hours.

 

[cmort666]

Strongarm robbery is NOT a property crime.

It is a crime against the PERSON against whom violence is used or threatened in order to unlawfully take something to which the taker is not entitled.

In Ohio, I have no DUTY to give you ANYTHING. I have the RIGHT to give you deadly force in response to the imminent threat of deadly force.

My only duties are:

1. Withdraw if I can do so in PERFECT SAFETY. This does NOT mean run away, only attempt to leave BEFORE using deadly force, and then only if I can do so without increasing the danger to myself in ANY way. This does NOT apply when in my vehicle or at home.
2. Stop my use of deadly force once my assailant is no longer a threat, either because he has fled, submitted or been rendered incapable of doing immediate harm.

People who don't want to get shot shouldn't become armed robbers. In civilized locales at least, it's dangerous.

 

[feralmerril]

Carrying a lot of money is a pleasure I never had. Every situation is going to be different. My life would be my first concern. Do I HAVE to try to shoot it out or not? Protecting someone else`s money would take 2nd or 3rd place. If it was MY money I might be a tad more aggressive in my decision.
I dont think I would let my wife put her life on the line every night carrying receipts for a employer. At least not like clockwork to set a pattern.
We are indocturnated from all sources to be passive and freely give up any valuables as "they aint worth your life". Generaly, that probley is true for the general populace. Overall, I am not sure I agree with the theory on my personnal basis. It preachs to be a sheep society and I suppose its got to the point that hold up artists count on it.
I have had my vehicle and house burglared at various times. I also have been cheated out of money. I never have been robbed at gun point.
My wife has. Some relatives have. My job was armed security for over 35 years. I cant recall anyone trying me out. Maybe they would have had I not been OCing. I know one thing. If it ever happens I am not going to jail for being overeager. The holdup artist better not make a mistake either.

 

[66Park]

We are indocturnated from all sources to be passive and freely give up any valuables as "they aint worth your life".

Yeah, we sure are. In my case, doing everything my assailant asked of me and thinking I would be ok because of that very nearly got me killed. You may need to do everything you are asked to, but never think that will make things ok. It very well won't.

 

[mc5aw]

My wife and I have our CHL, and I've been concealed-carrying for a few weeks, but she has not.

Dave ... You and your wife are very new to carrying, and should really consider getting additional training in defensive shooting. Strapping on a firearm doesn't make one qualified mindset-wise for self defense ... practice and training does. Honestly assess your respective skills, then ask each other the ultimate question: "If you were in the night-time scenario, would you feel confident in defending yourself with your handgun?" This question refers to ALL aspects of drawing and firing, from holstering, to target acquisition, to potential concealment, to dealing with gun malfunctions, to legal ramifications, to simple avoidance of the threat. If the answer is anything less than a resounding "yes", look into quality training/schools in your area asap.

 

[PALADIN85020]

Just my opinion, here. The carrier of large sums of money should always be in "condition orange." Be VERY aware of your surroundings, and don't venture into an area where you might be at risk if you can avoid it.

If you are surprised (dammit!) by an armed goblin, and he or she obviously knows you're carrying money: if it's in a bag, I'd slowly toss it away from the crook so he or she would have to divert his attention from you to get it. When that happens, I'd draw my concealed weapon and get to cover (perhaps behind a car) FAST. If the crook then approaches with a weapon, let him have it.

If it's just a common robbery of opportunity, Massad Ayoob, whom I respect, says he keeps a small amount of money in a money clip for "tossing" on the ground, and then - same tactics if you think you can manage it.

No amount of money is worth dying for. If you'd rather not try the "distract, draw and cover" technique, then hand it over with no attempt at potentially dangerous tactics. The money clip option sounds good, with no further involvement.

John

 

[C.S.63]

Vipergeek, OP
first reread BigD response!!!
Situational awareness!! vary everything no routines!!

So to say if they have the drop on ya what ya gonna do?

Do Not let them get the drop on ya!!!! back to line 2

Remember in today's time the mutts are capable of anything!!

Many many years ago armored car services working in NY, NY with 3 person teams 1 would get out and survey the situation and stand with back against wall observational readiness, 1 in truck and 1 make pickup/drop off.
(This is in Broad daylight mid town Manhattan let alone East NY after dark)


If this is something that needs to be done for work regardless get some additional training and do not let anyone know that you ccw loose lips sink ships then reread this statement.
"Remember in today's time the mutts are capable of anything!"

 

[Mickey D]

If your employer mandates you carry $10K PLUS CASH through a "dimly lit" parking lot after midnight I would suggest several options:

2. Drop safe in business.

1. Delay cash delivery until a.m. hours.

3. Armored car cash pickup.

4. New job.

Be safe.

I agree with these options, moving the drop safe to #1.
Let the day shift manager make the bank deposits during normal daylight banking hours.

 

[old bear]

Shooting them as they're leaving will probably get you in trouble.
__________________

It's human nature to turn and look if someone yells hi to a person. Give them the $$, let them start to walk off then call to them, when they turn to face you with a weapon in hand. Well ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but could you have one party stay in the store with the cash and have a second person drive up to the door for a quick cash hand off and be mobile very quickly?