Protecting yourself while carrying lots of cash?
- Thread starter ViperGeek
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66Park
Member
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feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Trial defense arguments aside, lets talk about the real odds of letting armed criminals get away. First, I dont belive there is a "first time" with the type. And moreso, if they do get away with it, I doubt they are ever going to quit until they are locked up or killed on the job.
I think I said earlier in this thread I dont ever want to go to jail for the sake of killing someone who just robbed me. If I survive the situation and he doesnt, it will be because I thought I HAD to shoot him, or, he made a huge fatal mistake.
I think I said earlier in this thread I dont ever want to go to jail for the sake of killing someone who just robbed me. If I survive the situation and he doesnt, it will be because I thought I HAD to shoot him, or, he made a huge fatal mistake.
Blueface2
Member
Right on point.
Very well stated.
I am so surprised by the numerous comments on this thread stating inability to shoot when robbed by someone armed.
In Florida, good luck to the robber. How can anyone not fear for their life when someone robs you who is pointing a gun at you?
How can a victim be expected to think they will not be harmed once a gun is involved in the crime?
Why wouldn't you have a right to use same force?
Mr. Williams in Ocala is a perfect recent example.
Two armed guys entered a business with intent to rob and who knows what else.
Response Mr. Williams gave was drawing his .380 and shooting both perps and continued to shoot as they retreated, as they were still clearly armed.
No charges filed.
How does that differ from what OP posted?
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Robbery is a felonious assault, and you can defend yourself with deadly force. It doesn't matter if you are carrying cash or not, when you are being threated with grave physical harm. If someone snatches the bag from you, or grabs it while you're getting your keys, that's something else. You can't, in general, shoot at someone fleeing, with or without the loot.
That said, you can't draw and fire faster than someone can simply pull the trigger. Your best bet is to comply, or toss the money and run broken field for cover.
If you feel threatened but don't see a weapon, you can but your hand on the grip, or even draw, keeping your weapon concealed by your side away from the subject. Technically, that's brandishing, but if nobody sees it, it never happened. Try to get something between you and the perp (or perps). Nine times out of ten, someone bent on doing you harm will break off if you reach for a weapon. It's that tenth time that makes all the difference. What's a threat? I can't answer that either.
A three day self-defense course might be a good way to spend a vacation, along with 500-1000 rounds of ammunition.
That said, you can't draw and fire faster than someone can simply pull the trigger. Your best bet is to comply, or toss the money and run broken field for cover.
If you feel threatened but don't see a weapon, you can but your hand on the grip, or even draw, keeping your weapon concealed by your side away from the subject. Technically, that's brandishing, but if nobody sees it, it never happened. Try to get something between you and the perp (or perps). Nine times out of ten, someone bent on doing you harm will break off if you reach for a weapon. It's that tenth time that makes all the difference. What's a threat? I can't answer that either.
A three day self-defense course might be a good way to spend a vacation, along with 500-1000 rounds of ammunition.
In most, if not all states, armed robbery is classified as a Crime Against Person, not against property. It is a felonius assault employing force or threat of force in order to unlawfully, without consent, take the property of another person. In such a case the victim is placed in justifiable fear of death or grievous bodily harm and thus meets the legal requirement for employing deadly force to repel the assault.
As to whether to comply with the assailant's demand or resist in the event he already has you at gunpoint is a critical decision that can
only be made by the victim based on existing circumstances.
As to whether to comply with the assailant's demand or resist in the event he already has you at gunpoint is a critical decision that can
only be made by the victim based on existing circumstances.
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
I've never carried lots of cash. I'm married.
My wife's company has a policy that two people in two different vehicles have to make the closing deposit. (The deposit is in only one of them.) If that is impossible, the deposit sits in the safe until the next day.
ECS
My wife's company has a policy that two people in two different vehicles have to make the closing deposit. (The deposit is in only one of them.) If that is impossible, the deposit sits in the safe until the next day.
ECS
I skipped to the end so if this has been said already, it's my fault.
Is the bad guy pointing his gun at you or at the sack of money? While it may only be "property", you are in danger if someone is pointing a gun at you to take it away. If the guy runs by and grabs the money bag, like a purse snatching, with no threat of harm to you, then it's only property. You might want to verify this with someone familiar with your local laws as different courts do some pretty stupid things.
Is the bad guy pointing his gun at you or at the sack of money? While it may only be "property", you are in danger if someone is pointing a gun at you to take it away. If the guy runs by and grabs the money bag, like a purse snatching, with no threat of harm to you, then it's only property. You might want to verify this with someone familiar with your local laws as different courts do some pretty stupid things.
OP
ViperGeek
Member
Thanks Jellybean. Your distinction is sound advice, and agrees with cmort666's summation in reply #23.
If I may be so bold, I think the major points brought up here are:
No offense to the many, many other excellent points that I may have missed in my executive summary. I'm very glad I proposed this quandary to ponder. This thread can serve as a great collection point for lots of good ideas on how and when to protect one's self when their situation/job requires them to become an attractive target to unintended violent crime.
- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.
If I may be so bold, I think the major points brought up here are:
- Improve the situation (drop box, secure transport, random daylight pickup, erase "$$$" from sack).
- Once engaged, minimize interaction with the armed BG
- There's no need to yield helplessly, but gun pointed at sack threatens property, and gun pointed at sack holder represents mortal danger, therefore deadly force is (probably) justified.
- Break routine. Don't be predictable.
- Hope for the best, but prepare to retaliate/defend with extreme prejudice.
No offense to the many, many other excellent points that I may have missed in my executive summary. I'm very glad I proposed this quandary to ponder. This thread can serve as a great collection point for lots of good ideas on how and when to protect one's self when their situation/job requires them to become an attractive target to unintended violent crime.
- Dave
_____________________________________________________________
In a world of compromise, some people don't. We carry Smith & Wesson.
If I were a businessman who had a daily deposit of $10,000 + I would have a decent safe installed and would not expect my employees to risk their lives bringing it to the bank at that time of night, especially on a daily basis. That, to me, seems to be asking for trouble.
photoman
Member
Always an interesting question. In Texas, one is required to be a commissioned armed security guard to do what you're talking about. Asking "Joe" to deliver the daily cash deposit to the bank because "he has a CHL and will protect the deposit" is against the law.
jaykellogg
Absent Comrade
We cannot cover every scenario here, but to answer your original question, you (or your wife) encounters an armed robber, can you use deadly force? The answer is yes. Is it a good idea? The answer depends on the situation. And as others have said, you cannot throw shots at a fleeing robber.
I recall a case recently where a man was robbed by a couple of gang members. They took his wallet and started to retreat and he shot them. They intended to shoot him from a range where his blood would be unlikely to spatter on them. I believe it was a gang initiation, the newbie had to rob and kill someone to join.
FWIW, I would never assume that if I gave the robber the loot he demands he will lave me alone. In fact, I would be likely to assume the robber intends to kill me.
I recall a case recently where a man was robbed by a couple of gang members. They took his wallet and started to retreat and he shot them. They intended to shoot him from a range where his blood would be unlikely to spatter on them. I believe it was a gang initiation, the newbie had to rob and kill someone to join.
FWIW, I would never assume that if I gave the robber the loot he demands he will lave me alone. In fact, I would be likely to assume the robber intends to kill me.
Blueface2
Member
Don't mess with Floridians.
For those concerned about theft of property and lethal action in response, here is another Florida case where a customer with a CCW saved the day.
Armed customer shoots dollar store robber, killing him - U.S. News
For those concerned about theft of property and lethal action in response, here is another Florida case where a customer with a CCW saved the day.
Armed customer shoots dollar store robber, killing him - U.S. News
sipowicz
Member
There's an old saying in police circles regarding reports on deadly force. "As long as you can write it." "And being in fear of my life..." is a sentence every CCW holder should learn how to use....
Packard
Member
I agree that a bank bag is a terrible way to carry cash. I much prefer a lunch box or insulated lunch bag. The presumption is that it either contains, or had contain a sandwich and a Coke. You are less of a target with a lunch bag/box.
As for using deadly physical force, it all depends upon how it is told.
In New York, a dog is simple property. I cannot protect my dog with deadly physical force. So if someone attacks my dog with a baseball bat and I am armed, I am supposed to stand by and not use my gun.
But I can impose myself in the situation, then the story goes like this:
"I saw him attacking my dog. I got between him and my dog and then he raised the bat as to strike me. I shot him in self defense."
For a late night robbery:
"He demanded the money. I handed it to him. At that point, instead of fleeing the scene, he raised his gun/knife/club as to attack me. I shot him in self defense."
Of course all of this presumes that there are no other viable witnesses. And even if there are witnesses:
"He made a move towards his holstered gun. I was afraid for my life. I also drew my weapon. My draw was faster, I guess..."
I think all of this has to do with "presentation of facts" and how they are told to the police. I think it is good thinking to rehearse many scenarios so that you can provide a plausible, but not criminal, response to the investigating police.
And remember that Bernard Getz really got away with murder until he opened his mouth and started bragging.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz
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Blueface2
Member
That is why every person carrying concealed should repeatedly recite the following until which time they learn to shut up and not say another word other than:
1) I feared for my life/my life was in danger
2) I fired in self defense
3) I would like To remain silent and speak to counsel
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Crooks are stupid, but they'll probably figure out you aren't putting a sandwich and a Coke in the bank's night deposit box daily....
Packard
Member
A friend of mine on Long Island wanted a pistol permit for exactly the same reason--he made late cash deposits. The Nassau County police volunteered to provide police escort for those deposits, so that he would not need a pistol. (Nassau County was very anti-gun owner in the 1980s).
In any event, if it were my wife making cash deposits, I would ask the local police if they could provide that same service.
In any event, if it were my wife making cash deposits, I would ask the local police if they could provide that same service.
Dmaxboy08
Member
First off, i would get with the owner of the company and state that it is not safe for her to be carrying large amounts of cash across a parking lot by herself. Try and get them to make changes.
I would also try to park as close to the door as possible.
I would also try to park as close to the door as possible.
THIS...
Check your state laws on use of deadly force. In my state, I could legally kill the assailant with no duty to flee.
Now... to the job. A job which required me to be carrying around lots of money unguarded would not be a place I would work very long.
