What??????????
Pump 12 ga
- Thread starter wingriderz
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What??????????
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wingriderz
Member
Thanks for all the replys. We moved into a rural aera 7 years ago ..It was a hot bed of criminal activity first few years. It's changed for the good and we have very few issues. But always stay well on it should have said this in beginning I always have side arm on waking hours. I was thinking the shotgun for darker hours on rural property just thinking I could get a better sight on a target at night than with hand guns I own. If it ever needed to happen
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Doug M.
Member
*
We don't like people very much. I generally do not want them coming to my house. The lockdowns of the pandemic made almost no difference to us. If one is not invited, I do not want them to be anywhere close to comfortable. My wife is significantly disabled. She would be doing well to move fast enough to hide and get a gun if I am not home. I am getting too old to fight. The more I discourage miscreants from testing me, the better my life is.
The additional lines of defense are evidence that someone who shows up is a criminal. I know of any least one known violent mentally disturbed meth head who was in our neighborhood and discouraged by the home setting while out being himself at night. Every once in a while there are stories about drunks and idiots entering the wrong house and getting shot, and people on this forum have expressed concern about such. That can't happen at my house.
As for the worth of pistols, if you look at the ballistics research from Dr. Fackler forward, including that of Doctor Roberts, there is no question that pistol rounds are not nearly as reliable as one needs in an emergency. Anyone thinking about using firearms in self defense needs to own and regularly study "In Defense of Self and Others . . . Issues, Facts & Fallacies—The Realities of Law Enforcement's Use of Deadly Force" Third Edition by Patrick and Hall, in which the ballistic realities are discussed in detail. Basic LE training (and other defensive uses) doctrine is that we carried a pistol because it was convenient. Anyone who went to someplace expecting a fight without a long gun is not very smart.
I've been to violent crime scenes as a cop, as a prosecutor, as the coroner when our office was the coroner by statute. I prosecuted violent criminals in court when I was a felony prosecutor. It is not possible to over state the depths of depravity and violence that can be displayed by criminals, and the risk they present to those who are unprepared. I think in this way because it is my reality. I include the considerations of evidence and litigation in the aftermath.
And to add more fuel to the fire...
Seems like most people are all hung up with a HD shotgun being a pump.
I grew up with semi-auto shotguns and thats what I hunt with. Also have a couple I shoot skeet with.
So when I got a shotgun for HD, I wanted something I was familiar with.
Got a Benelli M4
Seems like most people are all hung up with a HD shotgun being a pump.
I grew up with semi-auto shotguns and thats what I hunt with. Also have a couple I shoot skeet with.
So when I got a shotgun for HD, I wanted something I was familiar with.
Got a Benelli M4
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Approximately 7000 law enforcement agencies in the US, probably just about as many training protocols.
I prefer the additional steps of releasing the slide lock and disengaging the safety because that mitigates against unauthorized handling. Your methods may vary, of course.
KSG15 under the bed with one tube loaded with mini-bucks and the other tube with mini slugs. Hammer down on an empty chamber, safety off and selector on the buck tube. I have ran hundreds of these through it with no issues, and it feeds them and everything else I put through it flawlessly.
My USPSA limited gun(2011) on the nightstand with 21rds of .40 Hydrashocks. Yes, I use my competition gun for home defense, it's 100% reliable with factory ammo as proven in competition, and just as reliable with the Hydrashocks. I am also more familiar with the operation of this gun than any other and can operate it in total darkness with total confidence. When I compete, I use full power factory ammo. When I practice, I use handloads that replicate factory loads and I throw in some random rounds that I know my gun doesn't like because I like to practice clearing jams once in awhile.
A Ruger Security Nine in condition one in the arm of my recliner in the living room, and my wife's Kimber 9mm in her purse on the kitchen counter. And you really don't want to let me get to the safe.
But more important than what you use or how you keep it ready is practicing with it until it's operation is second nature. And practice starting with it in the stored condition of your choice. When you need it most is not the time to try and remember where the safety, pump release or any other control is. It should be muscle memory. Practice good and practice often. We had a saying when I coached ladies competitive softball, "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." Just going to the range and getting in trigger time and maybe practicing reloading is good, and keeps you familiar with your weapon of choice, BUT... It doesn't put those skills into play in your personal situation at home. When you are home, preferably alone, and with your weapon/s UNLOADED, practice getting your weapon into go mode from in bed like you were sleeping, from the living room, dining room, kitchen, bathroom, everywhere in the house. Practice getting to your first defensive position, and then your fallback. Think about where your family will be and what they are doing, where will they move to and what can you do to minimize their risk. There are a hundred different variables after first contact, and if you are the primary defender of your family, you have to take it all into consideration and prepare for it. What will your family be doing? Make a plan with them and practice it so they know exactly what they need to do. If they are at your fallback, how do you let them know you are coming their way? If the unthinkable happens and you don't make it back to them, what do they do. Or you successfully defend yourself and your family, are you ready for the ****storm that follows?
I could go on and on but hopefully you understand that having a defense weapon is just scratching the surface and there is SO much more to prepare for. Here's hoping you never need it!
My USPSA limited gun(2011) on the nightstand with 21rds of .40 Hydrashocks. Yes, I use my competition gun for home defense, it's 100% reliable with factory ammo as proven in competition, and just as reliable with the Hydrashocks. I am also more familiar with the operation of this gun than any other and can operate it in total darkness with total confidence. When I compete, I use full power factory ammo. When I practice, I use handloads that replicate factory loads and I throw in some random rounds that I know my gun doesn't like because I like to practice clearing jams once in awhile.
A Ruger Security Nine in condition one in the arm of my recliner in the living room, and my wife's Kimber 9mm in her purse on the kitchen counter. And you really don't want to let me get to the safe.
But more important than what you use or how you keep it ready is practicing with it until it's operation is second nature. And practice starting with it in the stored condition of your choice. When you need it most is not the time to try and remember where the safety, pump release or any other control is. It should be muscle memory. Practice good and practice often. We had a saying when I coached ladies competitive softball, "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect." Just going to the range and getting in trigger time and maybe practicing reloading is good, and keeps you familiar with your weapon of choice, BUT... It doesn't put those skills into play in your personal situation at home. When you are home, preferably alone, and with your weapon/s UNLOADED, practice getting your weapon into go mode from in bed like you were sleeping, from the living room, dining room, kitchen, bathroom, everywhere in the house. Practice getting to your first defensive position, and then your fallback. Think about where your family will be and what they are doing, where will they move to and what can you do to minimize their risk. There are a hundred different variables after first contact, and if you are the primary defender of your family, you have to take it all into consideration and prepare for it. What will your family be doing? Make a plan with them and practice it so they know exactly what they need to do. If they are at your fallback, how do you let them know you are coming their way? If the unthinkable happens and you don't make it back to them, what do they do. Or you successfully defend yourself and your family, are you ready for the ****storm that follows?
I could go on and on but hopefully you understand that having a defense weapon is just scratching the surface and there is SO much more to prepare for. Here's hoping you never need it!
Empty Chamber
I'm not a fan of "Rack the slide to scare them away" what you're doing is giving away your position.
BUT! Shotguns such as Rem 870 and Mossberg 500 are not drop safe meaning there is no firing pin block. It's possible the gun can go off if dropped.
If a 870 was my primary weapon, it would be locked and loaded.
With #4 or 1 buckshot but that's another story
I'm not a fan of "Rack the slide to scare them away" what you're doing is giving away your position.
BUT! Shotguns such as Rem 870 and Mossberg 500 are not drop safe meaning there is no firing pin block. It's possible the gun can go off if dropped.
If a 870 was my primary weapon, it would be locked and loaded.
With #4 or 1 buckshot but that's another story
Fishinfool
Member
An agency I worked for duty carried with the pull the trigger on an empty chamber method. Lots of AD's, usually into the officers car. Mandated clearing barrel use - but you know how that goes, never a clearing barrel around when you need one.
Eventually went to the no trigger pull method, and AD's decreased. Fore some reason, shotguns seem to confuse more people, and suffer higher AD rates than other weapons. Probably just plain unfamiliarity.
I keep my Rem 870 loaded with Rem high brass #4 buck, chamber and mag, along side the bed. No kids around. I do not like giving my status and position away by racking a slide.
Larry
Eventually went to the no trigger pull method, and AD's decreased. Fore some reason, shotguns seem to confuse more people, and suffer higher AD rates than other weapons. Probably just plain unfamiliarity.
I keep my Rem 870 loaded with Rem high brass #4 buck, chamber and mag, along side the bed. No kids around. I do not like giving my status and position away by racking a slide.
Larry
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Baltimoreed11754
Member
I just shot a 6 stage WB match Saturday, WB allows you to start with a loaded -mty chamber- shotgun, same as your rifle. At the loading table I would close my M1912 action, load 5 shells into the magazine and pull the trigger. No ADs. When 'shooter up' was called I went to the line staged my long guns and waited for the beep. A fun shoot.
6 of one half dozen of another. Go with how you've trained. It's the only way.
They generally have a hammer cocking sound when someone points a Glock. You'd think they'd make the sound guys a little more savy on firearms.
But back to the original question, I generally keep a pump shotgun handy for bears (we've had issues with bears coming onto the porch looking for food), but keep the chamber empty. It's just an additional safety. I've never bought into scaring the bad guy off with the action sound. And of course the bears don't care
Something also worth remembering about the shotgun (and, of course, every other firearm) is that from a liability standpoint, you own (are responsible for) everything that emanates from the business end of the barrel.
With the shotgun and pelleted rounds, there are going to be multiple, and usually quite large, projectiles going "downrange".
With this in mind, be sure to pattern test your SD shotgun, and chosen ammunition, at various ranges. This will help you to make good decisions if and when a situation arises.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/cruiser-ready-how-to-store-a-home-defense-shotgun-2020-update/
With the shotgun and pelleted rounds, there are going to be multiple, and usually quite large, projectiles going "downrange".
With this in mind, be sure to pattern test your SD shotgun, and chosen ammunition, at various ranges. This will help you to make good decisions if and when a situation arises.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/cruiser-ready-how-to-store-a-home-defense-shotgun-2020-update/
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That's a very good reason to use flight-control shells by Federal.
I've found they keep extremely tight patterns for a ways.
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Interesting discussion and many good points. When I was a Coastie, way back when, we might take the shotgun on boarding's, if we felt the need. It was carried without one in the pipe but with a full tube. If you racked the slide to chamber a round it was considered a warning shot and you would have to answer for it with an investigation to show the action was warranted. It might be different now.
Racking the slide on a shotgun is an almost universal sound that everyone knows. I can't imagine anyone on the "possible" receiving end of one hearing that and thinking they have a fighting chance of surviving a home invasion in unfamiliar surroundings more than likely in the dark. However, there are more drugged/drunk people nowadays that probably wouldn't care...
Racking the slide on a shotgun is an almost universal sound that everyone knows. I can't imagine anyone on the "possible" receiving end of one hearing that and thinking they have a fighting chance of surviving a home invasion in unfamiliar surroundings more than likely in the dark. However, there are more drugged/drunk people nowadays that probably wouldn't care...
Not so much for SD work but......
that is one reason I love my old hump back's for hunting birds in the field
here in Nevada.
While driving the dirt roads is search for chuckar, quail or Sage grouse.
with just the flick of the magazine lock, a round from the magazine slams
home a round in the chamber and you are readt to shoot, if needed.
This makes getting in and out of your rig safe and also legal.
Pappy taught me to never have a round in my shotguns, unless it was time to pull the trigger.
It might just come down to how much time it takes for you to get your shotgun in a ready condition, though.
that is one reason I love my old hump back's for hunting birds in the field
here in Nevada.
While driving the dirt roads is search for chuckar, quail or Sage grouse.
with just the flick of the magazine lock, a round from the magazine slams
home a round in the chamber and you are readt to shoot, if needed.
This makes getting in and out of your rig safe and also legal.
Pappy taught me to never have a round in my shotguns, unless it was time to pull the trigger.
It might just come down to how much time it takes for you to get your shotgun in a ready condition, though.
bulletslap
Member
Personally I don't put much stock in the slide racking deterrence theory.
The are advantages and disadvantages to a loaded chamber, many well stated above.
Make your choice based upon what you believe will be best for your situation. Don't be afraid to change your mind based upon experience and new information.
The are advantages and disadvantages to a loaded chamber, many well stated above.
Make your choice based upon what you believe will be best for your situation. Don't be afraid to change your mind based upon experience and new information.
forrestinmathews
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I do not use this for a home defense scenario. It did work for me once during a power outage where an individual was looking in cars with a tiny flashlight. Racked it once good and loud and the used car shopper ran like a jackrabbit. The little light was dropped on the ground and rolled halfway across the parking lot.
if you can shoot on your property shoot one round off at dark every so often. Get lights for your guns with green lasers. It's a big help.
This is not bad advice at all. There is a lot less to manipulate in the operation. A lot easier to familiarize others with also.
This is a manual of arms for people that are highly likely to have an AD/ND due to the frequency of casually handling weapons while regarding themselves as highly trained/experts. Much of this is done in areas where population density is high. It is nothing more than error chain mitigation, not sound tactical advice.
If a citizen is super concerned about drop safe and all the hype therein, retract the slide so that you can see the brass to plastic hull seam. The bolt is now sitting over the hammer and the firing pin cannot be struck. If it's dropped on the butt, it will eject the shell. For it to fire the weapon with just the inertia of the firing pin alone it would have to be dropped on the muzzle.
Except for all that noise you make in the process of loading the shell, the higher probability of getting at least one shot off without complex mechanical action and one shot greater capacity. You forget that most of us aren't yelling stop...freeze...PO-lice. We're in a situation where we aren't giving anymore notice to redirect ill intention. Jesus is on hold and we're about to connect the call.
When I purchased my first shotgun decades ago, I remember reading at that time that you should not drop the hammer on an empty shotgun chamber. Either my memory is faulty or the theory has changed. Also, the salesman who sold it to me, at Marshall Fields in downtown Chicago-can you believe that, sold me a snap cap when I picked up the shotgun. As I recall he recommended I use it. I see no harm in it so I will continue to do it.
gwpercle
Member
Loaded or unloaded ... It's strictly a personal choice that you need to base on your habits and situations . Do you have grand children around , cleaning lady ...The biggest thing is how do you usually keep your guns and when you pick one up do you want it loaded .
My personal way is handguns loaded . But my shotgun is leaning next to nightstand ... I like it with chamber empty / magazine loaded and butt stock ammo carrier attached .
No right or wrong answer , I have always kept my shotguns w/o a round chambered ... picking up a shotgun and racking the action is second nature to me ... it has nothing to do with being any kind of "deterent" the deterent is a load of buckshot .
Keep your gun in the condition you feel most natural with ... there isn't a lot of "thinking time" when bad things go bump in the night so base condition on what is second nature ... Me , instinctively , I'm pumping the handle before looking out the door !
Gary
My personal way is handguns loaded . But my shotgun is leaning next to nightstand ... I like it with chamber empty / magazine loaded and butt stock ammo carrier attached .
No right or wrong answer , I have always kept my shotguns w/o a round chambered ... picking up a shotgun and racking the action is second nature to me ... it has nothing to do with being any kind of "deterent" the deterent is a load of buckshot .
Keep your gun in the condition you feel most natural with ... there isn't a lot of "thinking time" when bad things go bump in the night so base condition on what is second nature ... Me , instinctively , I'm pumping the handle before looking out the door !
Gary
AJ
US Veteran
To our tactical folks this may sound silly. If I alert someone who has broken into my home that I am awake, alert and armed by letting a slide on a pistol go home or racking a shotgun slide, then so be it. It gives them the opportunity to cut and run, and me not to have to shoot someone. Besides the mess to clean up afterwards is not fun........
