Purchasing Hard Cast Bullets,Need Help

[pistolairo]

I am in the process of purchasing a quanity of 38spl/357 mag hard cast bullets from Midway. They are Shooters Supply 158 gr, PHP. They have a hardness of 10. They say they work best in the velocity range from 700 to 1600'/sec.

What concerns me is they state " Works in lever action rifles" and "Do not use in anything longer than a 20" barrel".

Will these work for pistols???? they don't mention pistols? Am I assume they work in pistols?? I want them for PD and hunting.

Please let me know if I need to cancel my order!!

Thanks For Your Help Again!

 

[arjay]

I interpret it as meaning they work in rifles and pistols.

 

[Rule3]

You mean Hunters supply?

This bullet?

Hunters Supply Hard Cast Bullets 38 Cal (357 Diameter) 158 Grain Lead

The 20" length is for Black Powder loads only.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have used a lot of these in pistols with no problem. I suspect the reason they don't recommend them in long-barreled rifles is that they will lead the bore.

 

[rwsmith]

10 is pretty soft

I am in the process of purchasing a quanity of 38spl/357 mag hard cast bullets from Midway. They are Shooters Supply 158 gr, PHP. They have a hardness of 10.

Brinell 10 is pretty soft and will lead more at high velocities. The bullets Rule3 pointed out have a hardness of 15, which is better

 

[pistolairo]

Is there a Brinel hardness chart and showing application such as velcity vs leading of a certain Brine. This would help me out a lot. I thought 10 was hard not soft. The information on this product indicated a 700 to 1600 hundred ft/sec. In the low 1200'/sec range in a pistol, would this still lead up a barrel. I guess hard cast thru me off.

 

[gwpercle]

Stay within the 700 to 1600 fps range and you will be fine . These bullets do not have a gas check, and are rated as 10 on hardness, so might lead if loaded over 1600 fps. Softer bullets are better in revolvers where they have to slug up to fill a cylinder throat. I have had some bullets that leaded because they were too hard to accomplish this. Some believe that the harder the better, but that ain't necessarily so when it comes to revolver's.
gary

 

[ChuckS1]

Hardness has little to do with leading whereas the proper fit everything to do with it. You'd be better served to determine your chamber mouth and barrel dimensions and get the correct size cast bullet. A soft, properly sized bullet will not lead, where the hardest cast bullet that's undersized will lead the barrel. It'll also be more accurate, all other factors being equal.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Just a suggestion, go to Rim Rock Bullets and check out their selection of lead cast bullets. I just received 2000 148gr DEWC from them, within a week of my order. The prices just went up, I believe now $ 46.00 to $ 48.00 a box of 500, $ 15.00 for shipping up to 4 boxes. I've loaded both their 148 gr DEWC as well as 148 gr and 158 gr SWC with good results. I also like Hornady swaged bullets but they are hard to fine right now.

 

[pistolairo]

This is all getting more complicated and confusing than I ever imagined in working with lead bullets. Throat sizes, bore sizes to start with. Then formulas to determine the correct hardness that deal with cup,velocity,etc.
The 38 spl not working with 158 gr. lead bullets.

I think I'm just going to stay with what Hornady & Speer have in their manuals for their lead bullets and not try to improvise till I learn more.

Thanks for all the help. I will sit back and read the posts and see what I can pick up.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Rule3]

This is all getting more complicated and confusing than I ever imagined in working with lead bullets. Throat sizes, bore sizes to start with. Then formulas to determine the correct hardness that deal with cup,velocity,etc.
The 38 spl not working with 158 gr. lead bullets.

I think I'm just going to stay with what Hornady & Speer have in their manuals for their lead bullets and not try to improvise till I learn more.

Thanks for all the help. I will sit back and read the posts and see what I can pick up.

Thanks for all the help.

You are making it harder than you need to. Buy the bullets they are fine. The 38 spl will work fine with those soft LEAD bullets, In your other thread you were talking about JHP.

Tho bullets from Midway are fine for target or self defense.

The old FBI load was a 158 gr soft LSWCHP

 

[Rule3]

Brinell 10 is pretty soft and will lead more at high velocities. The bullets Rule3 pointed out have a harness of 15, which is better

No they are not, they are 10 BHN

great bullet for competitive shooting or small and medium-sized game, these high-quality cast bullets are composed of 5% tin and 95% lead with a Brinell hardness of 10. They are rated to 1600 fps without

 

[chief38]

For general shooting and target work I use hard cast lead at Brinell Hardness of 16 - 18. I find it works very well and with minimal leading. IMHO a BH of 10 is just too soft.

 

[Frank237]

I've gotten FAR MORE leading with overly HARD than SOFT bullets in both revolvers and autos. You will be fine with a bnh of 10.

 

[ChuckS1]

Didn't mean to make this seem complicated because it's really not rocket science. My point was that hardness isn't going to prevent leading. I find it sort is disingenuis to see cast bullet companies selling "hard cast"bullets as a panacea for leading.

 

[Crabtree]

There's a pretty good explanation of lead hardness at the technical section of MBC's website. Hope this helps MBC hardness info

 

[Cervus canadensis]

Is there a Brinel hardness chart and showing application such as velcity vs leading of a certain Brine. This would help me out a lot. I thought 10 was hard not soft. The information on this product indicated a 700 to 1600 hundred ft/sec. In the low 1200'/sec range in a pistol, would this still lead up a barrel. I guess hard cast thru me off.

Here you go:

Missouri Bullet Company

Optimum BHN= CUP / (1422 x 0.90)

 

[PDL]

If the bullets have the same description of the ones from Hunters Supply then you need to interpret it a bit differently than you have.

By saying they work in tube fed lever action rifles, they mean the nose of one bullet is not pointy enough to set off the bullet ahead of it. It doesn't mean you can't use it in pistols.
As far as the 20" barrel warning, that's for black powder applications.

Correct size is important, which is why guys slug their barrels. Normally your lead bullet should be .001 larger than a jacketed one.

Generally a soft bullet will lead more if driven too fast, and a hard bullet will lead more if driven too slow.

Buy them and use them at the speeds they recommend. Have fun.

 

[arjay]

The swaged bullets from Hornady and Speer work well with their data.Just keep them slow or they will lead the barrel.Lymans manual is useful for loading hard cast bullets at higher velocities.If a cast bullet sticks a bit when you drop it through the chamber,it probably will work fine in that gun unless the barrel is smaller,but that's fairly rare.If the bullet just falls through the chamber,you'll get leading and large groups.

 

[captaint]

Now, go back and read post #8 again. Therein lies the important information. Fit is WAY more important than hardness, and at BHN 10, the boolits are not very hard - and they don't necessarily need to be. I, personally wouldn't load them past about 11 - 1200 fps. But then, how fast do we need them to go, anyway ? Just my .02. Mike

 

[pistolairo]

I agree with most of you on the fact it's fit rather than hardness. However you have to understand that relationship if you have to fine tune a situation. I got a hold of a bullet maker and he helped me understand that fit is the most important of the two. He often has customers that want a harder bullet than what they have to fox leading problems. Ofter it's a mix of sizing correctness and powder burn rate. Never considered any of this prior to this thread.

So with all of the knowledge I have acquired as a result of asking a very stupid question, as I look back.

I am going to load the Hunters Supply 158 gr hard cast lead bullets in my 38 spl and 357 mags. I think that fit is far more important than hardness. I can send them on their way in the 38 spl at around 850'/sec and the 357 mag at 1150'/sec. and they will do a good job. Look for leading and adjust.

I am not going to load the Speer GD 158 gr in the 38 spl. If I want to use a jacketed HP I will drop down to a 140 to 125 grain bullet for ensured expansion. I will use the 158 gr Gold Dots in the 357 mag.

I have been investigating the burn rates of different powders. Something I never thought of before. I always just looked at the recipes in the cook book and went for it. After analyzing the burn rates I am starting to understand how one can control some of the variables in hand loading. I seems that most of the requirements of powders for the 9mm,38 spl,357 mag, 45 auto run in the top 1/4 of the fast burn rates. So if you have a short barrel vs a long barrel you might look for a faster burninn rate in the powder. I always went with what I had on hand & didn't understand the needs of the pistol & projectile I was using.
So now I am starting to appreciate the art of "Hand Loading" when understanding how to control & change the undesirable results.

Well I have a lot to digest and I really want to thank everyone for their help.

 

[BruceM]

Hardness has little to do with leading whereas the proper fit everything to do with it.

Roger that!!

This notion requiring hardness/velocity matching has gained a lot of traction the last few years, mostly based on a document written by of couple of fellows on the left coast. However, if you look at this document, you see that it states that overly hard cast bullets "can[ or may] cause excessive leading". Note that it does not say "WILL CAUSE EXCESSIVE LEADING". These folks are highly educated individuals and I submit that the verbiage is the way it is for a reason. In technical documents, words have specific meanings and those who develop and write these said documents understand this.

BHN 10 bullets will be just fine IF the bullets are sized and lubricated correctly and your gun has no hidden issues such as a rough or copper fouled bore, barrel groove diameter to cylinder throat dimension mismatches. Even Marlin Microgroove rifling can be be an issue with cast bullets. In the case of the Microgroove rifling, I have doubts about BHN 10 alloy bullets having sufficient structural strength be be engraved correctly at rifle velocities though conventional style rifling should not present a problem out to 1,600 FPS. Stating a hardness is a left handed way of alluding to alloy strength. It is commonly used jargon used by cast bullet shooters by the way.

As far as things being complicated, follow the K.I.S.S axiom when dealing with cast bullets. Know this, cast bullets can be unnecessarily hard but almost invariably never too hard PROVIDED said bullets are both sized and lubricated correctly. Worry a lot less about matching BHN numbers to velocity and control what you can control most easily-size and lubrication.

Size is absolute king.

Bruce

P.S.

An absolutely priceless reference resource is the now long out of print NRA Cast Bullet handbook and any attached supplements. Expend some energy if possible and try to locate a copy. It's written by the NRA's Technical Committee and has as much and probably more detailed information than either the Lyman or RCBS Cast Bullet Manuals.

 

[686forme]

10 BNH isn't too bad but I would keep them below 1000 FPS. 158g bullet is great for .38 Special. I've loaded bunches of them using 4.0 grains of 231. Nice target load.

 

[photobiker]

Buy them and run with it. I'm shooting BHN 12 bullets in front of 3.3 gr of HP-38 and shooting 1" groups at 30 feet on a rest through a 6" barrel.