Question for older LEOs

[kscardsfan]

By the time I went through the academy the use of the sap etc was considered barbaric and abusive. Although I never understood how the bosses could find a beating with an Asp somehow better than a sap or a mag lite or other improvised weapon. Was the sap really that brutal? Did it do that much damage to the perp? And honestly, how many people that took the beating didn't deserve at least a little bit of what they got?

 

[nicky4968]

A. It hurt like hell.
B. The cop was having a bad day, and decided I should, too.
I was where I had every right to be, and I wasn't doing anything my grandmother would have disapproved of.

 

[Iggy]

The sap was disappearing even when I was in LE. I carried one for 13 years and can only think of a couple of times when I used it. The times I used it was in a crowd scene with a drunk and mouthy individual who was asking for a fight.

I had a small flat one called a slapper and that was how I used it. In each case, I "palmed" it and whacked a guy along side the head when his mouth overloaded his mind.

To those around it looked like I slapped him a good one on the side of the head with an open hand, but it seemed to get the guy's attention and shut his mouth. In each case an arrest was made and we had the full support of the bystanders in our removing the individual from the scene.

That was a different time and the police were not automatically seen as the bad guy.

I carried a Mag-lite, but never considered using it for anything but a flash light. It was too big and heavy for use against a person.

I used a riot baton on one occasion against a guy with a pool cue.

That incident led to the choosing of "Iggy" as my handle on the net, but that's another story.

 

[greyhawk178]

Too many years ago to admit, police trousers all had a narrow, deep pocket in the back around the wallet pocket called a "blackjack pocket". I always carried one but never used it.
Even in those days, the sap or blackjack was nicknamed "the butcher's tool". The spring loaded lead, if used on a person's head would cause very deep, long cuts as the leather covering slid over the skull. A night stick would also cut, but only at the impact point.
Anyone who hit an arrestee and split their head open would, automatically, be assigned to hospital guard duty. You learned, quickly, that soft tissue or rib strikes were much better and not nearly as messy.

 

[sub-moa]

Started in '73 when all issue trousers had the sap pocket, in the southeast anyway. By the early '80s sap pocket was gone but sap itself was still authorized, just stuck it in the the RR pocket, yes it was a PITA .

Preferred the bell shaped blackjack myself over the slapjack. The flat slapjack was promoted as producing less cuts when used against the miscreants noggin, which it probably did, but only when the flat made contact. When the edge made contact, which often occured during a knock-down-drag-out, it cut worse, a lot worse.

Noggin wasn't my preferred target anyway, in fact I only used it on scumbags heads a couple times. A good shot to the collar bone, shoulder or forearm and they wouldn't be using that hand against me, during that scuffle anyway ...

Funny, but when the sap was authorized, early expandable batons were specifically not authorized. Personally took to the ASP myself when they came out though, but I was already pre-disposed to the correct impact areas, and I learned to use the ASP well...very well .

There was a time in the late '70s and into the '80s that the police nunchucha became popular, in South Florida anyway. I'm convinced they whacked more cops than badguys before fading away...

What's that saying about sausage? It's great to eat but not something you want to watch being made. Unfortunately folks don't like to see what is often required to enforce the laws they want enforced. Impact weapons aren't always pretty.

 

[lonejacklarry]

B. The cop was having a bad day, and decided I should, too.
I was where I had every right to be, and I wasn't doing anything my grandmother would have disapproved of.

Somehow, I get the feeling that there is a lot more to this story that we're not being told. It appears you were walking down the street and were pounded silly for no reason.

I never used a "blackjack" but carried and used a slapper for years. They were very effective but one had to be careful to strike w/ the flat part and not the edge. Then we became a kinder, gentler police department and they disallowed their use-I don't know--around the late 80's??

Any impact weapon hurts and is capable of doing damage. We wouldn't want to hurt any citizens, would we?

In answer to the first question, no one I ever saw used one unless it was necessary. The next question is always: was it really necessary?

 

[keith44spl]

By the time I went through the academy the use of the sap etc was considered barbaric and abusive. Although I never understood how the bosses could find a beating with an Asp somehow better than a sap or a mag lite or other improvised weapon. Was the sap really that brutal? Did it do that much damage to the perp? And honestly, how many people that took the beating didn't deserve at least a little bit of what they got?

A sap is just a tool...Just like an ASP, to be used with discretion.

I carry the ASP now...Great for breakin' windows in cars, front doors and the like.

Never hit anyone that didn't ask for it...Repeatedly

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[jmark1651]

Most of the officers in my day carried slapjacks instead of the round blackjack with a spring, which could severly maim or kill a perpetrator. It seemed when I needed the unit, it had come out of my pocket in the car seat. I do not remember ever hitting someone with one. Now the flashlight or nightstick is another story. I started in 1973 and it's good to see tasers,stunguns,and other tools of the trade to bring someone into compliance.

 

[JayCeeNC]

I've used both the flat sap and the blackjack with the leather covered bell shaped head. I put a dozen very bloody gashes in the head of an LSD crazed college student one night with the blackjack, didn't faze him. I used the flat sap as described by others above, put a ringing in their ears and knocked them senseless for the few seconds it took to get them under control and in cuffs. I've used the metal flashlights in the same manner, but they tend to put gashes in the head.
I much prefer the debilitating effect of pepper spray. Less muss, less fuss, and a lot less blood.

 

[MPSGT]

Ideally in theroy, saps, blackjacks and billies were used on the knuckles, wrists, elbows and knees. In practice they were used almost anywhere including those points. They could leave a nasty gash when contacting the skull. I won't say how I know this.

 

[imjin138]

I still have a slapper and 2 pairs of sap gloves in the basement haven't used them in years. Right now i don't think it would be entirely legal to do so. Now it is ASP batons, Pepper Spray and tasers

 

[straightshooter1]

I had both the round, spring loaded one and the flat "slapper."

I used both more than my nightstick. Our nightsticks, when I started towards the last of 1968, were wooden and they would break over the suspect, leaving me with a handle and preparing to reach for my revolver.

I knocked two men out with the flat one, but, to my surprise, found out that, when they regained consciousness a few moments (or a minute, hard to tell) later, they apparently didn't know I'd won and continued to fight at the point they'd been when I hit them. I hadn't had time to cuff them before they were all over me again.

Most of these were in bar fights. In my town, there were several bars, one in particular, where they'd fight like the cowboys in a saloon in the movies. They wouldn't stop when the police got there, but often turned their attentions on us. It made perfect sense to me then, and still does, to stop the threat as quickly and efficiently as I could.

Even after we got the heavy plastic/nylon sticks, I still carried my flat slapper since it was less obtrusive than the stick. When the Kel-lites came out, I got a C cell one and replaced both the stick and the slapper with it.

We never had any training with impact weapons in those days, other than riot training where we used them as bayonets. We didn't know not to hit a suspect in the head and, even if I had been so trained, never was in a fight where I had the time to pick a particular target to strike.

I don't hold with using an impact weapon on someone passively resisting, though I guess I am in the minority there, but when the person is trying to at least beat the devil out of me, I don't much care what I have to do to stop him.

Bob

 

[Faulkner]

I have seen of late where some departments are disallowing the ASP when they issue tasers, thus getting away from any impact weapon at all.

My department considered this, but we didn't go there. You have to be certified to carry the ASP and/or the taser.

 

[greyhawk178]

Actually, I carried and used a "yawara" for many, many years. I was taught to use it by a Karate 7th dan. It is extremely effective and, most of all, unobtrusive. "God...why is he yelling like that ?? The cop only has ahold of his thumb "

 

[Karnivore]

My tool of choice (and the departments) was a 6 C cell maglite. Not too big around but still had the heft. I lived on night shift, so it as my constant companion when I got out of my cruiser.

Never hit perps in the head, but the shoulders, forearms and knees were fair game if they pushed the limit. This was back in the late 1980's.

Poor guys now cannot even speak harshly as a rule, but God help the perp that pulls a gun on one of them; they will attain ambient temp.

 

[newkid]

Older LEOs

Back in the bad old days when I was a rookie, many of the old timers carried a device known as "the claw." The claw was about 6 inches long. It consisted of a T handle. Beneath that was a spring loaded collar. Below that were two curved spring loaded, steel claws about 4" long. To employ the claw the officer placed the T handle in the palm of his hand, pulled up on the collar and the claws sprung apart. Then he would grab a wrist, forearm or elbow and give the handle a twist. Then the biggest and baddest turned meek instantly. This tool put the "come" in come along. By the mid seventies the days of the claw were over.

 

[Buford57]

Carried always, used seldom. I preferred the straight stick or a Maglite. Kubaton for passive resisters and close-in work.

Just an impression, but based on what I read and see lately, the Tasers are being used in a lot of situations where we would never have considered using slappers, blackjacks or any other impact weapon 30 years ago. Saw video this afternoon of a very vocal and uncooperative, but hardly threatening granny motorist being Tased.

I would never have taken a stick or a sap to a little old lady unless she was trying to knife me, and maybe not then, but it took this officer about 15 seconds from the time she got out of the car to resort to electroshock therapy.

Looks like the sap, the stick, the hands and persuasion have all been replaced by the Taser.

 

[smitholdtimer]

SAP, carried but never used

I too carried mine all the time on duty but never had to strike anyone, of course the "perps" were not intent on killing us all back when. I'm glad my time has passed for you young guys are dealing with the worst of the worst, they have no remorse for their deeds. Be safe!

 

[Rule 303]

I aways kept the sap away from banging the bad guys in the head with it. I went through the US Park Police Sap School in 1973. I liked it for a brical stun or at sensitive pressure points. I also like the side handle baton and the ASP.
I just didn't try to kill the folks with them unless it was a lethal force situation, ie I had a BG choking one of my Rangers and was on top of him. I was afraid to shoot, I was afraid the round would stike a bone and deflect down, so I took a swing for the left field fence with my night stick, split his head from the top of the nose to the top of his head. He was out on bond for sexual assalting his girlfriends five year old boy. Tried him in Federal Court for assault on a Federal Officer and then testified to his violent ways during the State Court trial on the Sexaul Assault. Spent lots of time in everybody's prison with Bubba for a sweetheart.....
Our issue trousers had sap pockets....

Rule 303

 

[Rule 303]

Funny how TASERs came out in the late 60s and early 70s but were equated with Cattle Prods used on the Civil Rights Folks, but slaps and saps were considered just fine to use on the bad folks. Now we all know about TASERs and OC.
My, Oh, My, how times change.

Rule 303