Question for the lever gun guys

[SAFireman]

Ok gents,

I have this radical idea......it's not a new idea by any means, but it's one I haven't seen discussed.

There are lots of folks who have lever guns that match their pistol - 38/357, 41 Mag, 44-40/44spl/44mag and 45 Colt, but has anyone given real serious thought to a chambering in 45acp, 38 Super, or the like?

I love to carry my 1911's, they are slim, lighter than a double stack anything. I have seen ads to convert Marlins to 45acp and they just don't really float my boat. Has anyone seen and/or shot one in 38 Super/9x23?

I think that may be the 'new' ranch rifle alternative....The Coonan 357 is intriguing, but seems like a novelty in these parts...

Don't get me wrong, the Marlin 41 Mag gets the job done, but carrying the 58,57, and/or 657 sticks out in town. The 1911 hides better among the otherwise law-abiding sheeple of the neighboring community when I need to fill up on farm diesel, or buy batteries for the deer feeders....or get a fresh cooked meal in town.

Any of you fellas have any real world input to share?

I think that a 38 Super (9x23) would be really something out of a 16" barrel

Thanks in advance.

ETA - yeah, I know that Colt made a 38 spl 1911, but is designed around a wadcutter & a light target load. That's a great deal for paper punching, but won't cut the mustard for feral hogs, deer, and 2-legged snakes that we are seeing out in the brush of S Texas.

 

[old pipefitter]

I think all lever gun cartridges chamber on the rim of the case. 45 ACP chambers on the case mouth. Therefore i think its impossible to make something like what your talking about. I might be wrong but to my understanding of how cartridges chamber i think thats why. Revolvers are different as you can use moon clips

 

[Alpo]

I don't know why this is, but I am unaware of any tubular magazine firearm that Chambers a rimless cartridge. And since rimless cartridges have been around for more than a hundred years, if it was a possibility, it seems like somebody would have done it already.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I like the idea of a bolt action carbine with interchangeable barrels for 9MMP, 38 Super, 9x23, then 45ACP/45 WinMag, using M1911 magazines.
As noted, a lever gun for rimless cartridges would require a major redesign.

 

[6GUNSONLY]

Pretty much anything CAN be done with application of sufficient time, money, and engineering, but I think if this were practical it would probably have been done and we'd know about it. Seems like it would almost have to headspace on the mouth of the case to provide a consistent place for the extractor to locate, and we're aware of the inherent problems with case mouth head spacing.

 

[texmex]

I have a Marlin Camp Carbine in 45 ACP. It uses 1911 magazines so it is a pretty good companion to a 1911. I also have a Thompson 1927 . I have dreamed about having a 16 inch barrel and a shoulder stock made for a Colt 1917 so you could use 45 moon clips in pistol and carbine.

 

[bigmoose]

Am I missing something here? Can't you just have a barrel chambered such that the cartridge headspaces like it does in a 1911 barrel? A little redesign of the breech end to accommodate a modified extractor and voilà. I would imagine the rimless cartridge would slide out of the mag tube, carry up on the lifter and into the chamber rather nicely. Imagine how many of the short, fat .45 auto rounds you could stuff in the mag tube? I like this idea. I like this thread.

 

[rockquarry]

One of the best of the gunwriters, C.E. Harris, wrote up a brief piece on a lever-action gun (maybe a Marlin) that had been professionally converted to .45 ACP. I read the article in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN when Harris was on the Technical Staff there thirty-five or forty years ago and don't remember much about it. However, I seem to recall this wasn't a particularly easy conversion for the gunsmith.

 

[Chubbs103]

This shop will do it for you.

The Cowboy Shop By Chuckaroo

I believe the Cody rifle are set up NOT to feed ball ammo.

I remember a lot of discussions on the topic a few years ago. There are concerns about ball ammo being used and causing detonation in the magazine. Of course, bullet shape is a concern for any caliber when loaded in a tube magazine. I remember someone pointing out that a rimless cartridge is a greater concern, because rimmed cartridges actually have a tendency to be tilted in the magazine (bullet nose down, rimmed base up), while a rimless cartridge would be more in alignment.

I have no real-world experience with .45 acp in lever guns. Just passing along what I have heard.

 

[kraynky]

A company called Grizzly something or other makes custom caliber lever guns, or they did. Seems like they made the 45 acp and 10mm guns out of your rifle. There may be others out there doing it as well.

I'd love to have one in 38 super to go with my 1943 1911 Super 38. And a 10mm to go with my 610.

I'll probably just have to settle with my .357 and .45 colt combos though.

 

[SAFireman]

A company called Grizzly something or other makes custom caliber lever guns, or they did. Seems like they made the 45 acp and 10mm guns out of your rifle. There may be others out there doing it as well.

I'd love to have one in 38 super to go with my 1943 1911 Super 38. And a 10mm to go with my 610.

I'll probably just have to settle with my .357 and .45 colt combos though.

I was very specifically thinking about the Marlin 1894 series in 38/357 firing a 38 super +P, or 9x23 since they are semi-rimmed. I have heard of folks shooting 38 Super +p in their 357 mags and some other worthy 38 specials.

I have seen the 45 ACP conversions, and they can still be had, but they are expensive.

The idea of the Super round in the the Marlin 1894 with a 16" barrel gives me the giggles right now

 

[lihpster]

If it's just something you want to do, and you have the funds and the time to wait for it, then what you're proposing can be done. However, I think the amount of time and money will be more than you might like. I say, buy 3 guns. A rifle/revolver combo for field work and a 1911 for going into town. One assumes that since you're concealing the handgun, you won't be carrying a long gun into the feed store. Without the long gun, the need for common ammo isn't there. Different tools for different jobs. JMHO.

 

[SAFireman]

If it's just something you want to do, and you have the funds and the time to wait for it, then what you're proposing can be done. However, I think the amount of time and money will be more than you might like. I say, buy 3 guns. A rifle/revolver combo for field work and a 1911 for going into town. One assumes that since you're concealing the handgun, you won't be carrying a long gun into the feed store. Without the long gun, the need for common ammo isn't there. Different tools for different jobs. JMHO.

Funny you should mention that. I have been carrying the Super 38 around while filling deer feeders (not hunting hogs, or hanging around at night), and part of those duties includes running into town for dyed diesel for tractors and such and deer corn, of course. The lever gun rides between the DS front seat and the console (I am never out of sight of that truck while it is in town).

I figured that it would serve double duty and not look TOO tactical as some of my duties include travel into Uvalde, which is still hyper-sensitive to AR's. Not that anyone would see it in town, but if they did get a glimpse, then it wouldn't get the 'OMG - man with a GUN call to the local PD, SO, DPS, CBP, ect). The Commander is easily covered with a Mossy Oak fishing shirt or Wrangler tan button down.

 

[2152hq]

A MArlin 94 in 38/357 might come very close to feeding/firing 38Super right as it is.
The semi-rimmed 38S does HS on that very small rim. The OAL of the 38S might be a problem in feeding.
Using the orig bolt face with it's extractor for the 38/357 might need alteration for best extraction/ejection with the smaller 38Super cart base,,maybe not all that much though.

The orig bbl specs being 38spcl/357 might not give the best accuracy for the slightly smaller 38Super bullet.
But some simple try-outs before any full out conversion attempts would tell if the project was going to be a money and time pit or not.

Take a few 38Spcl or 357 cartridges and make a semi-rimmed version out of them.
A case w/ head specs like the 38Super with it's semi rim.

Then try that 38spcl or 357 semi-rim round through the action and see how it/they feed/eject, etc.

The orig Marlin used to feed correctly on the right OAL of the cartridges.
Too short and the next one in the tube would get partially onto the carrier as well and jam the action
Too long and the cartridge would not clear the magazine tube and would jam the action.

Shorter cart like the 38Super would likely need carrier work to get feeding right.
I'm not familiar with the newer 94's to know if they have in place a system that allows various OAL cart to be used w/o a probl.
That would elliminate a big issue.

Just some ideas..
Projects are like that.

 

[jdh]

I don't know why this is, but I am unaware of any tubular magazine firearm that Chambers a rimless cartridge. And since rimless cartridges have been around for more than a hundred years, if it was a possibility, it seems like somebody would have done it already.

Marlin 336 in 35 Remington.

 

[eveled]

I would love a lever gun in .45acp. Think about how many rounds it would hold?

It would be awesome.

 

[Puller]

I think the answer is simple, if it was financially feasible for a gun manufacturer to do so and make money they would already be on the market. As it is, it seems they can't make enough .38/.357 lever guns to satisfy the demand.

 

[Doug M.]

Because I am a nice guy, I will help you fund your project by purchasing your .41 Magnum Marlin. Isn't that nice of me?

 

[rockquarry]

I don't know why this is, but I am unaware of any tubular magazine firearm that Chambers a rimless cartridge. And since rimless cartridges have been around for more than a hundred years, if it was a possibility, it seems like somebody would have done it already.

Remington 14 and Remington 141 have tube magazines and were chambered for several rimless cartridges. There may other such guns as well.

 

[Muley Gil]

Remington 14 and Remington 141 have tube magazines and were chambered for several rimless cartridges. There may other such guns as well.

Those were bottleneck rounds and headspace on the shoulder.

"The semi-rimmed 38S does HS on that very small rim. The OAL of the 38S might be a problem in feeding."

Modern .38 Super pistols headspace on the case mouth. Traditionally, the .38 Super was not known for accuracy because the very small rim caused poor HS. Once the change was made, accuracy was on par with other standard pistol rounds.

 

[rockquarry]

Those were bottleneck rounds and headspace on the shoulder.

"The semi-rimmed 38S does HS on that very small rim. The OAL of the 38S might be a problem in feeding."

Modern .38 Super pistols headspace on the case mouth. Traditionally, the .38 Super was not known for accuracy because the very small rim caused poor HS. Once the change was made, accuracy was on par with other standard pistol rounds.

Okay, I thought he was talking about rimless cartridges. I don't believe he specified anything else.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I don't know why this is, but I am unaware of any tubular magazine firearm that Chambers a rimless cartridge. And since rimless cartridges have been around for more than a hundred years, if it was a possibility, it seems like somebody would have done it already.

The .35 Remington cartridge is rimless and has worked in Marlin lever actions for over 60 years.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

This shop will do it for you.

The Cowboy Shop By Chuckaroo

I believe the Cody rifle are set up NOT to feed ball ammo.

I remember a lot of discussions on the topic a few years ago. There are concerns about ball ammo being used and causing detonation in the magazine. Of course, bullet shape is a concern for any caliber when loaded in a tube magazine. I remember someone pointing out that a rimless cartridge is a greater concern, because rimmed cartridges actually have a tendency to be tilted in the magazine (bullet nose down, rimmed base up), while a rimless cartridge would be more in alignment.

I have no real-world experience with .45 acp in lever guns. Just passing along what I have heard.

Copy the spiral magazine tube of the Remington mdl 14 & 141 and your bullet point problem goes away.........There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

There was the Marlin Model 62 in 30 Carbine, though that came with a clip magazine.

 

[2152hq]

The Stevens 425 model lever action rifle was chambered in the Remington AutoLoading Rifle series of cartridges,,25,30,32 and 35 Rem.
All rimmless bottleneck of course.
No spiral magazine. They didn't make an awful lot of them, but they worked just fine. Heavy buggers though.
Tough to go up against the big W for a market share of the LA scene.

A rimless or semi rimless cartridge can work fine in a L/A.
Semi rimmed Winchester Self Loading Rifle carridges worked fine in the 1905, 1907, and 1901 series of autoloading rifles.
Box magazine fed, not tube. But they headspaced just fine on their scant semi-rimmed designs.

The rifles such as these or a Marlin LA has a full support chamber so the semi rimmed case can work as it it designed.
You just can't force a case with a rim that is even a few .000 larger in dia than the base just in front of it any deeper into the chamber.

The 38Super was a poor fit in the 1911 as the only case rim support for the semi rim on the case is the small radius of the 'hood' extension off of the breech.
That leaves the semirim from about 1oclock to 11 oclock unsupported.
A sloppy chamber and the case can move forward under the hood rim recess cut.
Poor accuracy resulted.
Headspace it on it's case mouth and it's the same as the 45acp.

In fact it's the same as the 30 Carbine, and that seems to work just fine in auto loading rifles. Why not in a manual loader like a LA.

You have the challenge of working/reworking the feeding, carrier, extraction/ejection to work with the new cartridge.

That's what you get in cartridge conversions. Doesn't matter if it's this or converting a Mauser to something it's not normally thought of as being used for.

The commercial market may not be screaming for a 38Super Lever gun, but that doesn't mean you can't make one.
Damn the cost,,full speed ahead.

A 45acp lever gun may be of interest on the commercial market. But I have an idea that the FMJ ammo worrys the Gun Mfgr lawyers about magazine tube kabooms.
Real or not, those folks are paid to worry about the non existant possibilities of things becoming real.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

I use .45 Schofield in my short barrel uberti 1873 and marlin 1894. Played around some with shorter 45 cowboy special. You run into issues with the oal being too short. But with enough money they can be made to run with the short semi rimmed cartridges. Wild Bunch cas shooters developed them mainly so they only need a lot of 45acp ammo to shoot a match.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

The Stevens 425 model lever action rifle was chambered in the Remington AutoLoading Rifle series of cartridges,,25,30,32 and 35 Rem.
All rimmless bottleneck of course.
No spiral magazine. They didn't make an awful lot of them, but they worked just fine. Heavy buggers though.
Tough to go up against the big W for a market share of the LA scene.

A rimless or semi rimless cartridge can work fine in a L/A.
Semi rimmed Winchester Self Loading Rifle carridges worked fine in the 1905, 1907, and 1901 series of autoloading rifles.
Box magazine fed, not tube. But they headspaced just fine on their scant semi-rimmed designs.

The rifles such as these or a Marlin LA has a full support chamber so the semi rimmed case can work as it it designed.
You just can't force a case with a rim that is even a few .000 larger in dia than the base just in front of it any deeper into the chamber.

The 38Super was a poor fit in the 1911 as the only case rim support for the semi rim on the case is the small radius of the 'hood' extension off of the breech.
That leaves the semirim from about 1oclock to 11 oclock unsupported.
A sloppy chamber and the case can move forward under the hood rim recess cut.
Poor accuracy resulted.
Headspace it on it's case mouth and it's the same as the 45acp.

In fact it's the same as the 30 Carbine, and that seems to work just fine in auto loading rifles. Why not in a manual loader like a LA.

You have the challenge of working/reworking the feeding, carrier, extraction/ejection to work with the new cartridge.

That's what you get in cartridge conversions. Doesn't matter if it's this or converting a Mauser to something it's not normally thought of as being used for.

The commercial market may not be screaming for a 38Super Lever gun, but that doesn't mean you can't make one.
Damn the cost,,full speed ahead.

A 45acp lever gun may be of interest on the commercial market. But I have an idea that the FMJ ammo worrys the Gun Mfgr lawyers about magazine tube kabooms.
Real or not, those folks are paid to worry about the non existant possibilities of things becoming real.

The 150 gr Remington .35 cal bullet was almost a a spitzer with a flat point. It never kaboomed in any Marlin lever rifle........I imagine the cartridge stop on the tube magazine would be the biggest problem to overcome with a rimless round.

 

[BAM-BAM]

A different approach that works for me........... for matching caliber rifle and handgun.

I have a Winchester Trapper and a Ruger Ranch carbine (5+1) both in .357mag. as utility rifles around the cabin.............

If they are "primary" then I'll back them up with a 60-10 .357 "micro-686"
Smaller lighter and thinner than a full size 4" 686.... extra Safariland Comp I speeder loader in a split -six mag pouch..... easy to carry IWB in a kydex holster.

 

[smoothshooter]

No one does .45ACP in tubular magazines because people will insist on loading them up with 230 gr ball. Then eventually a bullet nose will smack the primer in front of it and cause several rounds in the tube to fire all at once and split the magazine tube. Might injure the shooter's supporting hand in the process.
Just get a .357 or .44 Magnum lever action and be done with it.
Or better yet, a .30/30.
There is no real need to have the handgun and rifle shoot the same cartridge.
Convenient, but not necessary.

 

[BB57]

No one does .45ACP in tubular magazines because people will insist on loading them up with 230 gr ball. Then eventually a bullet nose will smack the primer in front of it and cause several rounds in the tube to fire all at once and split the magazine tube. Might injure the shooter's supporting hand in the process.
Just get a .357 or .44 Magnum lever action and be done with it.
Or better yet, a .30/30.
There is no real need to have the handgun and rifle shoot the same cartridge.
Convenient, but not necessary.

Both round nose and flat points are acceptable in a tubular magazine, just not spire points.

——

I agree with you that the .30-30 is hard to beat in a lever gun.

I have three Pre 64 Model 94 20" carbines with tang sights and all three are excellent for taking deer sized game out to about 200 yards. All three are 1.5 MOA accurate, compared to about 3 MOA for post 1963 Model 94 carbines.

Similarly, I have a pre war 26" Model 94 rifle. It's even better balanced and adds about 140 fps to the 150 gr RN load's 20" 2260 fps performance.

About a year ago I acquired a post 1963 Model 95 Classic 26" rifle mostly to prevent wear and tear on my pre was Model 94 rifle and when I confirmed it shot well, I added a Williams receiver sight. It's a solid 1.5 MOA rifle with the receiver sight installed.

——

However, I am also a big fan of the .38-55 and I bought a couple of Winchester Legendary Frontiersman rifles as they are well made, great shooters at 1.5 to 2 MOA depending on the load, and are not too gaudy as commemoratives go. Given they made 19,999 of them, they also don't have any real collectors value and can be had for around $800, a lot less than the $2229 MSRP for a comparable Miroku made Winchester Model 94 in .38-55.

A modern metallurgy 38-55 can launch a 255 gr flat nose soft point at 1950 fps. Zeroed for 180 yardsit has a +/-5" point blank range of 210 yards and still retains 1304 fps and 962 ft pounds at 200 yards, compared to 1485 fps and 734 ft pounds for the .30-30.

Even loaded down to black powder era cartridge levels with a 245 gr cast bullet at 1275 fps and a 125 yard zero it still has a 150 yard point blank range of 150 yards and retains 1034 fps and 580 ft pounds at 150 yards.

That last figure for the 38-55 is interesting as the Federal .357 Magnum 158 gr soft point launches at 1820 fps from a 20" Model 92. With a 150 yard zero it has a +/-5" point blank range of 175 yards and retains 1349 fps and 638 ft pounds at 150 yards.

That's pretty impressive for a mid bore handgun cartridge, and makes the .357 Mag cartridge a legitimate deer getter out to around 150 yards. Which is why I own a couple Rossi Model 92s in .357 Mag. Both of the, are 2 MOA accurate at 100 yards.

And if you live in one of the states that limits rifles to straight wall pistol cartridges, it's a very good option, whether you own a .357 Mag revolver or not.