Question for traffic LEOs.

[feralmerril]

Situation. I did my career in crowded, busy, california. We retired here to cedar city utah. Cedar city sits on I-15 between vegas and SLC. Its a town of 15 to 20K in the area. I think crime free and tame in comparison to southern california. Almost daily I see cars with youths pulled over and searched. Far more than in busy southern california.
I would appricate answers that arent PC but painfully honest.
1. If YOU have teenagers, do you tell them to be cooperative or say hell no, your not going to search without a warrant?
2. If you yourselfs do many searchs, what are the percentages of people that say get a warrant as to being cooperative?
3. If you do a search what are the odds of you finding something?
4. Do you ever put stuff back in the car as found?
I just hate seeing people giveing up their rights. Invarably they are young. The more kids in the car, the more apt they are shook down.
Is my area as I described it similar to your areas, or is it a abbergation? Is my area pushing the envelope, or not? Thanks.

 

[JamesArthur60]

1. If YOU have teenagers, do you tell them to be cooperative or say hell no, your not going to search without a warrant?

Why would any responsible parent tell their kids NOT to cooperate with the police?

If you have nothing to hide, go along with the program. It will be short and sweet and you'll be on your way. Cops aren't stupid, they will sense lying, sneaking and hiding.

I always liked the phrase, 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'

 

[johngalt]

Never heard of the 4th Ammendment?
Terry vs Ohio?

With all that is wrong with this country, we don't need to add to it by teaching the next generation that they subjects rather than citizens.

 

[ingmansinc]

There are a lot of issues here that need to be addressed in order to answer the questions. In my opinion there is a vast difference between being cooperative and having ones rights violated. Being respectful and being cooperative are not the same.

 

[Hermann]

There are a lot of issues here that need to be addressed in order to answer the questions. In my opinion there is a vast difference between being cooperative and having ones rights violated. Being respectful and being cooperative are not the same.

Very true!

 

[CDMead]

If you have nothing to hide, go along with the program.

I dislike that phrase more than most others. Who decides the program?

I have Constitutional rights. If you don't have probable cause or a warrant, I will politely decline consent to a search. Period.

Civil servants work for the citizenry. Not the other way around.

 

[The Big D]

In general, the vast majority (like 99.9999%) of the honest Americans I encountered during my LEO career consented to searches upon request. Because so many consented, we developed a form upon which they noted their consent...after being advised that their consent did NOT have to be granted.

I teach/advise teenagers and young adults regularly; I advise them to do whatever a LEO asks...and to consent to any search request(s.) If they are dumb enough to have things they should not have they must learn there will be consequences.

Even those with stuff they should hide often consent to searches absent a warrant. Overall, I suspect about 75% of searches found something. Bear in mind that didn't always result in an arrest(s.) Some items were simply contraband or the quantities didn't support an arrest.

I usually conducted an orderly search and kept disruption to a minimum. However, roadside issues sometimes resulted in a bit of a mess. That was never intentional, however.

Hope this info is useful and responsive...

Be safe.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Retired cop here. Back when I was a puppy policeman we were taught that we were nothing special, just the people that the citizens had selected to pay a salary to in return for performing law enforcement duties so that the average citizen could go about his life in peace.

I watched through the years as the training changed, young cops were taught that they were the arbiters of right and wrong, somehow above the citizens and responsible for enforcing societal norms on the masses (of lesser beings).

I don't like what I see these days. I especially don't like public schools that no longer teach civics, government, the Constitution, etc.

I have conducted many searches of individuals, vehicles, and property, both with and without a warrant. I have been in situations where I had a suspicion but lacked probable cause, and I have advised people that they were under no legal obligation to permit a search. Very seldom did anyone refuse consent to search. Very seldom did my search fail to uncover evidence or contraband.

I have been stopped for minor violations, I have been stopped at DUI checkpoints, and I was once stopped at a narcotics interdiction checkpoint on an interstate highway. I have been asked for permission to search my vehicle, and I have politely declined. I was once (at the narcotics checkpoint) simply ordered to get out while they searched my vehicle for drugs, to which I politely told the officer that it would be a good idea for him to call his supervisor, to whom I explained that should they decide to perform a warrantless search without my consent I intended to own their homes and their retirement funds after a few years in federal court on a civil rights complaint. It took about 30 minutes, but I was permitted to proceed without any search (which I still consider to be a warrantless arrest without probable cause).

We lose our rights by ignorance, by neglect, and by failing to stand up for those rights.

I now carry a digital recorder in my vehicle, and I will use it every time I am stopped for any reason (this does not happen very often). I also keep a couple of attorneys' phone numbers on my cell phone's speed-dial menu.

So, I'm just an 11th generation law-abiding American, honorably discharged combat veteran, and retired cop. I'll stand up for my rights every time.

 

[Tom Beavert]

Lobogunleather hit it dead center!
Thanks for proper wording ....
It is hard to teach young people the decision making process to use in a case like this. We have rights untill we give them up.
Never give up your rights!
tb

 

[Bailey Boat]

I'm going to have to go with the Lobo camp on this subject. The reason I left law enforcement was the change of police attitude he describes. In addition to that I saw the change in the general populace attitude toward law enforcement and I couldn't see anything for the better on the horizon. Time to go........

 

[m1gunner]

An overzealous LEO stopped a neighbor several years ago. The neighbor was on his way to the dump with the pickup loaded up to the cab. The LEO conducted a search (with consent) expecting to find contraband under all the stuff. Drug it all out and scattered it around.

There was no contraband, and the LEO left about 750 pounds of junk on the side of the road when he told the neighbor he was free to go. The neighbor waved and drove off.

The LEO was seen the next day in his personal pickup (off the clock) loading the junk up for the remainder of the trip to the dump.

 

[Chromedhearts]

I was told by one cop that refusal to consent to a search was all the probable cause he needed. 'Prevalent attitude around here.

 

[feralmerril]

Thanks for all the comments so far. Where I was comeing from is the assumption that the kids I have seen pulled over were 100% innocent with nothing to hide, yet like sheep meekly give up their rights. As I said, I came here from southern california where crime of all types must have been a 100 X as much. Back there you just didnt see the rouse,s that you do here. I got the impression that the LEO had enough for real hot stuff to handel without fishing. A day ago I seen a car of kids pulled over for no reason that I could see. The cop was along side of me and I saw everything she did. Now of course I didnt have her info on what she knew off the radio, computer or in briefing. However, in this area I have seen far more of the same situation in this unpopulated area compared to the heavy citys in california. I bet if I drove the freeway all day long here I could show you what I am talking about almost several times a day!
The best one I seen was a local unmarked large black SUV around here that has out of state CALIFORNIA plates pull over and shake down some kids! Luggage all over the side of the road.
I think about a year ago when I seen it I posted the same question here and got next to no response, and the few that did claimed the LEO was legal doing so. Well, maybe, but if a unmarked with out of state plates tryed to pull me over, I belive we both would have difficultys!
As I said on my first post, the thing that bugs me the most is the INNOCENT kids are so programed to be goot germans! The gang bangers are fair game to me. I profile too.

 

[tops]

There have always been arrogant and overbearing lawmen but the numbers of decent lawmen doing their job is getting less. The black uniforms, bloused boots,etc. makes me think of a police state. I can remember when most game wardens were nice but for the last several years they act like everyone is doing something illegal. I guess it is the new training that they are great and the rest of us are under them. I tell my family that the law is not their friend and do not give them permisson to do anything. I remember reading that in the wild west the only difference between the law and the gunfighters was the lawmen had badges. They were both homicidal maniacs and decent people stayed away from both. I see too many cases in the news of the law abusing their authority. Larry

 

[Faulkner]

There have always been arrogant and overbearing lawmen but the numbers of decent lawmen doing their job is getting less.

In my opinion this mirrors our society in general. I would chalk this up to our educational system the past 30 years.

The black uniforms, bloused boots,etc. makes me think of a police state.

I tend to agree with you on this. My department spent a lot of time about 4 years ago redesigning our uniforms. The general concensus was we wanted to utilize BDU's because they were more practical. We went with a navy blue BDU with yellow/gold trimmed (non-subdued) patches for visibility, but bloused pants are a major no-no.

I can remember when most game wardens were nice but for the last several years they act like everyone is doing something illegal. I guess it is the new training that they are great and the rest of us are under them.

I am a certified LEO training instructor and I've never seen this class of which you speak on the corriculum. In fact, I would suggest that training leans heavily in the other direction with courses and yearly mandatory refreshers covering ethics in law enforcement, community policing, racial profiling (how not to), traffic stops, and search & seizure.

I tell my family that the law is not their friend and do not give them permisson to do anything. I remember reading that in the wild west the only difference between the law and the gunfighters was the lawmen had badges. They were both homicidal maniacs and decent people stayed away from both. I see too many cases in the news of the law abusing their authority. Larry

When I review your post I am actually sympthetic to your concerns though I find them unfortunate. As a LEO, I'm not so worried about the new, younger, law enforcement officers entering the ranks so much as I am about the whole generation of young people we have produced. Condeming all young cops is like condeming all young people, and it just ain't so. But more than ever, our current generation of young people are a product of our liberal educational system. They are entitled. They want at age 25 what it took the previous generations a lifetime to accomplish. They do not respect authority. I throw a wide net about young people, I know, but the society we live in now is changed dramatically in the past 30 years and it's not the cops fault. We're just trying to adjust like everybody else.

 

[n4zov]

"We lose our rights by ignorance, by neglect, and by failing to stand up for those rights."

Lobogunleather absolutely nailed it! Some kind of joint task force drug interdiction operation is routinely conducted on I-20 in the Birmingham area and it is not unusual to see folks detained and their good scattered all over the roadside. It also isn't unusual for this task force to find large amounts of illegal drugs. I always wonder how many people they have to stop and search before they find the drugs or other contraband.

 

[JamesArthur60]

I now carry a digital recorder in my vehicle, and I will use it every time I am stopped for any reason (this does not happen very often). I also keep a couple of attorneys' phone numbers on my cell phone's speed-dial menu.

Since you are a retired officer, that's a scary statement. Not much trust in American LE, eh?

 

[DEP801]

As a retired LEO, I can't agree more with Lobogunleather. All to often I've seen our police departments turn into an "army of occupation. Particularly with young people many, thankfully not all, officers act as if they can do what ever they want. I once attended a class given by a then Sheriff's Dept. (NC) Captain, who when asked by a non LEO "How come the the police search my car whenever I'm stopped for speeding" replied, "Because we're the po-leese." He wasn't happy when I spoke up, reminding him that the Department of Justice had a civil rights division. There are some excellent videos on the web, available as teaching tools, concerning interaction with LEOs. Taking the time now, to become aware of your rights, and responsibilities, could save you, and your family untold later costs, both to your freedom and pocketbook.

 

[DEP801]

As a retired LEO, I can't agree more with Lobogunleather. All to often I've seen our police departments turn into an "army of occupation". Particularly with young people many, thankfully not all, officers act as if they can do what ever they want. I once attended a class given by a then Sheriff's Dept. (NC) Captain, who when asked by a non LEO "How come the the police search my car whenever I'm stopped for speeding" replied, "Because we're the po-leese." He wasn't happy when I spoke up, reminding him that the Department of Justice had a civil rights division. There are some excellent videos on the web, available as teaching tools, concerning interaction with LEOs. Taking the time now, to become aware of your rights, and responsibilities, could save you, and your family untold later costs, both to your freedom and pocketbook.

 

[CDMead]

I was told by one cop that refusal to consent to a search was all the probable cause he needed. 'Prevalent attitude around here.

And he would be wrong and lose big time in court.

As much as I disagree with the ACLU lots of the time, they have produced a very good webpage about this subject:

Know Your Rights: What to Do If You're Stopped by the Police | American Civil Liberties Union