Question on 158 Lead SWC in .357

[Super Dave]

Hi Guys,

I'm going to try some of my Missouri Bullets 38 Match 158 grain SWC with the 12 hardness. Could you guys clarify some things for me.

First, I'm looking for an accurate, light recoiling target load to shoot paper and steel from 25 to 50 yards.

I was going to start with 3.9 or 4 gr. of Bullseye.

I was also going to try 4.5 grains of Titegroup and work up a little. Hodgdon lists the velocity for 4.5 grains at 1,028.

So, my question has to do with leading. I read that if you load too slow or too hot you will have leading.

Do those sound like a good place to start with that bullet?
Thank you,
Dave

 

[Rule3]

I use 3.5 gr of Bullseye (max per Alliant) with the MBC 158 gr soft lead bullet. It is a excellent target load, Still a light load.

If not Bullseye, then HP38/W231.

I have not used TiteGroup and doubt I ever will.

 

[Super Dave]

Thank you Rule3. I just looked on the Alliant website and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the 3.5 gr. Bullseye is the max for .38 Special. Do you use that same charge in your .357 case also?

I guess I don't understand why you have to increase the charge by 10% (from what I've read) when going from a .38 case to a .357 case if you want the same performance. Does the increase case size of the .357 require more powder to get the same velocity that you were getting in the .38? Or, is there some other reason?

I appreciate the help.

Dave

 

[forestswin]

Dave
I can't answer for Rule about his load, but for the same powder and charge weight - as volume in a case decreases, pressure increases and going the other way is also true. As the volume increases, the pressure decreases.

Also, I just did some load development for the same bullet except I have BHN = 18.
As I worked up from low to high, I did get some leading using the lower charge weights. With the higher charge weight, I don't get any leading at all.

It helps to clean the lead out often when doing load development. I think its inevitable over a large range of charges, unless the bullet fits perfect.

 

[txbirdman]

Leading has more to do with bullet fit than BHN hardness. If you get bullets sized .358 then I'd think leading wouldn't be a problem. BHN of 12 is about equivalent to clip on wheel weights which I shoot all the time without leading in my .38's

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Leading has more to do with bullet fit than BHN hardness. If you get bullets sized .358 then I'd think leading wouldn't be a problem. BHN of 12 is about equivalent to clip on wheel weights which I shoot all the time without leading in my .38's

I do agree with txbirdman about bullet fit especially fitting the cylinder throat size. I do think that the bullet lube plays a huge part in this as well. MBC does have a serviceable lube for a commercial bullet. I have found that a soft lube is the way to go but commercial bullet manufacturers have a huge handicap as they have to ship the bullets and need a fairly hard lube as not to arrive to the customer a gooey mess. If you do get a bit of leading a few passes with a dry bore and a dry snug fitting bronze brush will clean it up nicely with no damage to the bore. Heavy leading will call for firmer action such as an Lewis Lead Remover or Chore Boy copper strips on a worn bore brush.

 

[Super Dave]

Perfect. Thanks guys. I will be loading tonight.
Dave

 

[jepp2]

Leading has more to do with bullet fit than BHN hardness. If you get bullets sized .358 then I'd think leading wouldn't be a problem

Without knowing throat or groove diameter, I wouldn't conclude a .358 bullet will work.

I would suggest you start by slugging your barrel with a pure lead slug. Then take the slug and see if it will pass through the cylinder throats with only finger pressure. If it doesn't, you will probably have leading problems no matter what size bullet you choose. It is easy to do and is very informative.

 

[stevehart3578]

Leading has more to do with bullet fit than BHN hardness. If you get bullets sized .358 then I'd think leading wouldn't be a problem. BHN of 12 is about equivalent to clip on wheel weights which I shoot all the time without leading in my .38's

This is correct. Bullet fit is more important than hardness.

"Without knowing throat or groove diameter, I wouldn't conclude a .358 bullet will work.

I would suggest you start by slugging your barrel with a pure lead slug. Then take the slug and see if it will pass through the cylinder throats with only finger pressure. If it doesn't, you will probably have leading problems no matter what size bullet you choose. It is easy to do and is very informative."

This also good advice.

When I started loading cast bullets for my revolvers I didn't feel comfortable slugging the bores so what I did was contact a few bullet companies and bought samples of their bullets in different diameters. If you explain to them what you are trying to do most companies will sell you, or even give you, a small amount for testing purposes.

After a lot of testing I found that .358 diameter works for me, zero to little leading, very accurate,

If your guns are new(newer) then .358 will be best. Modern machine technology is amazing.

I did confirm the existence of the Ruger barrrel constriction. My GP100 leads with the same loads that all of my S&W's pass easily.

 

[rwsmith]

All I know.....

Missouri .38 caliber 'Match Grade' bullets are said to be for 'target velocities' as opposed to the 18 br. hardness bullets that are said to be for 'magnum velocities'. Your results are bound to vary some, not knowing your barrel dimensions, but I'd think about 1100 fps would be about max for the target grade.

 

[alwslate]

Super Dave your question is a bit difficult to answer because you don't
say what gun and barrel length you have and what velocity you expect.
The velocities quoted by Hodgdon are taken from long test barrels and
are far in excess of what you will get in a revolver. And yes you have
to increase the charge weight when going to the 357 from a 38 case
to get the same velocity. Sounds like you are using 357 brass in a 357
revolver. Bullseye and Titegroup give similar velocities in my
experience. In my 4" S&W 28-2 with 357 brass and 158 gr SWCs
5.3 gr Bullseye = 1012 fps and 5.2 grs Titegroup = 1027 fps. Leading
is not a problem.

 

[Collo Rosso]

I use 158gr. SWC's from Georgia arms at .358 in 357mag cases, standard primer and 13.5gr. of 2400 for a nice accurate plinking load. Oh, firm crimp!
No leading with a 6" 686 and now will see with a 4" 686.

 

[fredj338]

Leading is almost always a bullet fit issue, almost never a vel issue in handguns. Check your cyl throats, they need to match bore dia @ min, 0.001" larger is ideal. If the bullet sizes down passing thru the cyl throat, it's going to lead, regardless of vel.
A 12bhn bullet will run fine upto about 25k psi. Some powders do better with lead than others, TG is not one IMO, burns too hot, smokes the lube off. If you only want 1000fps, use 38sp +p data. The greater case volume of the 357mag reduces pressures. There is no hard & fast rule, like increase 10%, but you do need to up the 38sp data in mag cases to get the same vel with equiv pressures.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have used the maximum Bullseye loads in my 686 with magnum cases and the accuracy was ok........however the "Standard" 38 special loads will work just as good or better for a nice light target load in your 357.
For some reason "HOT" 38 loads in a mag case did not shoot well with 158 lead in my 6" mags. It was either low or std 38 loads or warm 357 magnum loads or more in the 357 cases that turned out the best accuracy in my revolvers.

788 fps with Trail or 918 fps with Bullseye were my most accurate low to high loads with the 357 case.

good luck.

 

[Rule3]

Thank you Rule3. I just looked on the Alliant website and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the 3.5 gr. Bullseye is the max for .38 Special. Do you use that same charge in your .357 case also?

I guess I don't understand why you have to increase the charge by 10% (from what I've read) when going from a .38 case to a .357 case if you want the same performance. Does the increase case size of the .357 require more powder to get the same velocity that you were getting in the .38? Or, is there some other reason?

I appreciate the help.

Dave

Aloha Dave,

Yes Alliant lists 3.5 gr as a max for the 38 Special. Actually per them you should reduce the charge by 10% for a start load.

In other manuals like Lyman Cast the load data is a little different as it will be in another manual. They all vary by bullet used and test data, lot number etc.

Yes, in a 357 case it is a bigger (longer) case so there is more volume you will need more burned powder (gas) to get the bullet moving.

A fast burning powder like Bullseye is not the ideal powder for true 357 Mag loads you want a slower burning powder for those. There are also other/better powders for 357 Mag target loads(that is whole other can of worms)

But, you asked about the soft MBC and I use that and the load given in 38 Special 4" SW M 67 (38 spl only)

Bullet size and BHN (hardness) both matter as to leading

Only your gun will tell you

Hope this helps .

sure hope I got my 3 R's correct

ridden, riting and rithmatic

 

[Super Dave]

Hi, thanks for all the replies. I got busy with family stuff and never got to load the lead rounds.

Sorry I didn't mention the guns previously: 686 in 6", 627 in 5"

I did load up some Berry's plated bullets and they did very well in my 686.

Here's some groups I got over the weekend. This was from bags at 25 yards. I only shot 1 group with each round due to time.

I was very pleased with the 4.7 Titegroup under Berry's 158 FN in my 686 / 6". That's a keeper load. The 4.5 charges didn't do as well with either gun.

What kind of accuracy are you guys getting at 25 yards with 2400 powder? Is one inch or less realistic? Have you found 2400 found to be more accurate at higher charges with 158 grain XTPs?

Thanks for the help.
Dave

 

[forestswin]

Dave
Really nice! - I really like target pictures! thanks.

I use 1 1/2" at 25 yards, on a rest as a goal for my 686 6"

I think that's a reasonable goal.

 

[perrazi]

super dave- for leaded bbls. think Lewis Lead Remover. check brownells, midway, all the usual internet outfits.

 

[Forrest r]

I've been using/casting/shooting lead bullets in the 38spl/357 for 3 decades now & currently have 12 different revolvers in those calibers that I reload for. A couple of things that I managed to learn & pick-up over the years.

That dreaded leading:
Most people mistake antimonal wash for leading. After WWII antimony started being introduced into bullet alloys (cheap) to make lead harder. A by-product of antimony is light grey streaking in bbl's from too much antimony in super hard alloys & is mistaken for leading. If you are truly getting leading in your bbl, it's important to understand why.
Leading @ the 1st inch of bbl ='s improper bullet fit/undersized bullet.
Leading down length of bbl ='s too soft of alloy.
Leading @ the muzzle end of bbl ='s lube has failed.

A bullets bhn:
There's way to much urban legend/myths going around about the proper bhn for a bullet. Most commercial casters push 22bhn bullets on the public. 22bhn is strait linotype & will only serve 1 purpose, it allows them to use the 1 size/hardness fits all. They can use the same alloy for 38spl bullets that they use in the 500mags & expect the users to have the same results pushing that 38spl bullet 850fps as the 500mag doing 1900fps.
There was a little known guy named Keith that did a little bullet designing that thought 12bhn was an extremely hard alloy & used that alloy for his testing of the bullets he designed.

Some random thoughts:
Call me simple but I've never pinned/slugged/measured any revolver that I've ever owned. When I 1st buy a pistol I will take a cast/sized bullet for that caliber put the in the cylinders. If they fall threw I'll use a bigger bullet in that firearm.
Too hard of an alloy (12bhn vs 22bhn) can & will actually cause more harm then good in light/medium loads. If the harder bullet isn't a perfect fit for that firearm it will cause leading because it can't obutrate/expand/seal the bbl.
A 12bhn bullet (lead hp) does it's best (fully expand) in the 1200fps range. If a lead hp bullet can't expand (22bhn), what makes you think it will expand & seal your bbl?

I've cast/shot countless 1000's of lead bullets in a 357 for decades, most of them in the 8bhn to 12bhn range. A good soft lube & a soft lead bullet sized to .358 is all I've ever needed. Don't get caught up in the commercial casters/gun rag #'s, go out & enjoy what millions of casters/reloaders have done for decades with nothing more than wheel weights (11bhn/12bhn) for a casting alloy. Shoot mid level loads & lead bullets in their 357's.

 

[venomballistics]

bullseye, maybe ... titegroup .. no the stuff has a reputation for burning a bit too hot for lead.
personally, I go straight for unique in these cases.
better case fill and more potential for a little extra power over bullseye loads.
Universal would also do well in this role and I recall trail boss being listed for this, which just might be the last word in what your trying to accomplish ... until they go ahead and invent a new word to address it