Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet

All 4 revolvers are bone stock , with kinda crappy (gritty, inconsistent) DA trigger pulls on the 45 and the M&P
All shot per rastoff's outline
 
Thanks bob ! Pic incoming
-mike
Sorry for the delay, was out for a bit while we were all eating.

This pic is from kamloops67. :)

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Thanks Bob O
Having a tough time loading photos with my iPhone

I must say this challenge is not as easy at it looks
These were the only four I shot with no warm up
45 then 38 mp then m14 them m17 then I got chased of the range by horse flies ... They come for my shooting glasses , but stay for lunch
 
Thanks rastoff , it was fun
Can't wait to get some 240s loaded up for the 629 or 69 and try this again
those are the two I shoot DA almost exclusively ... Playing at bear defence lol
 
When to range early yesterday with friends. I challenged him to the Rastoff's challenge. :-) I did great in the beginning, even through 7 yds., then I blew it, hands was shaking, knees were knocking, and, as they say, I couldn't stand the pressure. He beat me, but he is ten years younger. At least that is my excuse and I'm sticking to it. :-) I'm gonna try it again, this time earlier in the session when I'm stronger. At least I can see vast improvement in my shot placement since I have become more familiar with the new pistol.
 
That's a great report Ole Joe Clark.

Another aspect of this challenge that is easy to gloss over, is how it is administered. To keep within the spirit of the challenge, it should be the first thing you do when you get to the range. No warm ups. When in a defensive situation, you won't have time to warm up.

That's how I shot it; cold.

Even so, I don't care if people shoot it multiple times or shoot a bunch of rounds to warm up. It's a test of our concentration. Everyone can do it if they use proper fundamentals.
 
practice, practice, practice........
when I've been shooting paper targets since early April when I first shot the "challenge" , I've used the target Rastoff gave us to use. Plus I have since acquired my M&P 9c, which I love. So this round I used the 9c and came up with a bit better results. :) Post #179 shows the first try(using my fs M&P9).

2yopjzd.jpg
 
Nice target Just another 22 shooter.

I've noticed a phenomena that I can't explain. A lot of people, and I do mean a lot, seem to do better with smaller guns. Why is that?

I've even had this same thing happen to me. I had two Glocks, a 22 full size and a 27 sub-compact. Both were .40S&W. For some reason, I always shot the 27 better. It makes no sense.

Now here we have Just another 22 shooter who's shooting his 9c better than the full size. Go figure.
 
If I could copy and paste the 3 yd group from that target and the 10 yd group from this target and the great one hole 7 yd group from (you get the idea) I would have done this challenge many times. But I have yet to put it all together on one target. Have come close a few times, staying in the spirit of the rules (no warm-ups, well, once) but always have that 1 or 4 rds. out of bounds. Probably 300 rds. so far with 2 .45s and a 4" .357. I ain't giving up. It still is a fun drill.
 
Great post prplbkrr.

I believe we all struggle with a flinch on some level. I too struggle with a flinch; a bad one. Every now and then I'll drop a shot. When I say drop, I mean drop like I was aiming at a different spot. I'll put 19 shots on top of each other and then one will go low by 6".

That's the unique thing about this challenge. It's harder than I thought it would be. It's not physically hard, it's the mental acuity that makes it challenging.
 
The pistol I'm trying to shoot better is the SW40VE, not the best trigger and ...... bla, bla, bla. you know the story.
I have been dry firing this pistol lots, and can control the sights and trigger much better now. I do find that if I sight the target and go ahead and get a shot off, I shoot much better. If I diddle around and try to get a perfect sight picture, I start shaking and the shot could go anywhere.
 
I will never understand a concealed carry qualifying score being attained while firing "from the ready . . . "

I agree 100%

This is target shooting not self defense shooting, I also teach and this may be OK for a basic course. Grip, stance, trigger control,muzzle control,and so on.

Self defense except in certain conditions begins and ends from the holster.

Your times are much to slow, yes for a beginner maybe to get use to what is taking place.

Everything your suggesting will fall apart without proper technique
out of the holster. for most it's hours of training and many hours of practice.

Lets not even get into shooting and moving.

Again a nice practice for shooting at the range or teaching basic skills
but to teach it without introducing a holster only means re-teaching a lot of it a second time.

Your targets do not represent combat accuracy for the average person.

my advise to folks is to practice, practice, sad thing is most indoor ranges will not allow rapid fire or drawing from a holster and that is sad in many ways.

If my students can't draw, present, and fire safely at 7 yards with combat accuracy in under 2 seconds I tell them to leave the gun at home until they can.

I would seriously consider relabeling your exercise.
It gives combat defensive shooting a bad name.

Many people fail from just having a timer beep behind them, let alone a full blown adrenaline rush, tunnel vision and diminished auditory senses.
 
This is target shooting not self defense shooting, I also teach and this may be OK for a basic course. Grip, stance, trigger control,muzzle control,and so on.

Self defense except in certain conditions begins and ends from the holster.
Remember from the OP, this is taken from my CCW qualification, but the circumstances of the challenge are different. This is about people pushing themselves to be better. It's about trigger control. It's about learning yourself so that if you ever need to take a precision shot, you'll know exactly your ability and limitations.

Remember, I'm in CA. Getting a CCW is very difficult here. I'm a firm believer that a lawful citizen shouldn't have to ask permission to carry. So, I devised a shooting qualification that would be easy enough yet showed sufficient safe gun handling.

However, I believe as you do, there's more to defensive shooting than just having a gun. So, the part that's not listed is the shooting we do after the "official" qualification. Here is what I do next:
  • 4 Controlled pairs (2 second par time)
  • 4 Shots with the support hand only. Most have never even tried this.
  • Reload drill- Fire two, emergency reload, one more shot. (5 second par time)

All this is from the ready. I've only got one hour with them at the range. If presentation from the holster was allowed, it could get very dangerous. In all the time I've been teaching this class, I've only had three students with any training in how to present from the holster. If you're really a defensive instructor you'll understand why it's not a good idea to have several students with no training presenting from the holster and trying to shoot under time pressure when they have no experience with it.

Yes, this is not how I would expect someone to shoot if they were defending themselves. However, if they are attempting to save a hostage, they better be able to do this. Don't you agree? Thus, the idea is to use your carry gun in the manner it would be used on the street.

For some reason people think that I'm suggesting that this is the only way to shoot, it's not. It's just one component of a well rounded skill set. There's simply not enough time in the class to do much instruction. If they come back for a class that is only about defensive shooting, there is a lot more they would learn. Yes, time would be a factor. Not just one time, but many depending on distance and position. Also, not just presentation from the holster, but presentation from concealment.

Now, are you going to take the challenge or did you just come here to hijack the thread? ;)





Ole Joe Clark said:
I do find that if I sight the target and go ahead and get a shot off, I shoot much better.
This is because you're making one smooth motion when you shoot this way. The same can be accomplished after the sight picture is obtained. Once you have the proper sight alignment and sight picture, just start building pressure on the trigger. Build pressure until the gun fires. Focus should be on the front sight. Practice this by first building pressure slowly. Then speed the pressure build until you're shooting at the same speed you would when just bringing the gun up. That way you'll combine precision with speed.

Then, you can slow down again, but your trigger press will be smooth and consistent. This way you can go a little slower and obtain the best precision when you have time.
 
Now, are you going to take the challenge or did you just come here to hijack the thread?
My intention is not to highjack your thread, Rather the intent is to point out how your info is is misleading to a new shooter. For the most part I don't argue with folks on the net. But since you want to pursue your logic, I will indulge you.
I think that will be a challenge in itself.


All this is from the ready. I've only got one hour with them at the range. One hour and you present this type of challenge ? If presentation from the holster was allowed, it could get very dangerous. Handling firearms is always dangerous. Your exercise in a new shooter environment only shows them what you can do and what they can't do In all the time I've been teaching this class, I've only had three students with any training in how to present from the holster. If you're really a defensive instructor you'll understand why it's not a good idea to have several students with no training presenting from the holster and trying to shoot under time pressure when they have no experience with it You don't have to be an instructor to understand that, common sense prevails here.




However, if they are attempting to save a hostage, they better be able to do this. Don't you agree? Thus, the idea is to use your carry gun in the manner it would be used on the street.

My goodness man, by your own admittance they are new shooters
with minimum to no experience, and within one hour want to bring in hostage resolution with a firearm.


I have admit I have been defeated, not by your challenge,
but simply from your logic.
 
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