Real world effectiveness of 642
- Thread starter vito
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Hey Gang,
Per RPG's comment on loads for a 2". I sat in on an autop where a bad guy was taken down by a 2" J frame and two 148 grain factory wadcutters. He was a big guy and took both rounds in the boiler room. Both rounds came to rest just under the skin in his back. According to witnesses he was DRT and managed about a half a step before face planting in the parking lot where he tried to rob a little old lady---packing heat. Since retirement I have been doing work for a major ammo company doing FBI protocol "jello" shoots. With modern bullet design, I'm definately not convinced that Plus P ammo is an advantage in any caliber in any barrel length. I see that same penetration out of standard pressure loads, with the same percentage of expansion. Why beat up your gun or yourself?
Taj
Per RPG's comment on loads for a 2". I sat in on an autop where a bad guy was taken down by a 2" J frame and two 148 grain factory wadcutters. He was a big guy and took both rounds in the boiler room. Both rounds came to rest just under the skin in his back. According to witnesses he was DRT and managed about a half a step before face planting in the parking lot where he tried to rob a little old lady---packing heat. Since retirement I have been doing work for a major ammo company doing FBI protocol "jello" shoots. With modern bullet design, I'm definately not convinced that Plus P ammo is an advantage in any caliber in any barrel length. I see that same penetration out of standard pressure loads, with the same percentage of expansion. Why beat up your gun or yourself?
Taj
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
What he said. Excellent little book by a guy with a lot of real-world experience.
hoosierboy57
Member
CQC
I like my model 36 so much that I just got the 637 Gunsmoke with the enhanced trigger since it's lightweight and clips on the waistband or where ever you want. I know that it's more likely to have a close encounter vs. 20 ft. and if my snubby is jammed up against a bad guy at least I might get off all 5 shots without a failure.Can't do that with auto loader.
I like my model 36 so much that I just got the 637 Gunsmoke with the enhanced trigger since it's lightweight and clips on the waistband or where ever you want. I know that it's more likely to have a close encounter vs. 20 ft. and if my snubby is jammed up against a bad guy at least I might get off all 5 shots without a failure.Can't do that with auto loader.
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Shorty 45 MK2
Member
Sounds like a question that can't be answered.
The BGs who died by them can't really tell you how effective they were.
The 642 is only one gun of many using the .38, so the question really should be how effective is the .38?
It's more how good is the (and I hate using this word) platform? Is it reliable, concealable and you have confidence in it?
If so, its effective.
Ask the dead, if you can, if it hurt as much as a .44 or .45.
The BGs who died by them can't really tell you how effective they were.
The 642 is only one gun of many using the .38, so the question really should be how effective is the .38?
It's more how good is the (and I hate using this word) platform? Is it reliable, concealable and you have confidence in it?
If so, its effective.
Ask the dead, if you can, if it hurt as much as a .44 or .45.
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Capt.Jim
Member
Yup, as long as you can put holes where they need to go.
Yeah, but it is also really important to explain to the BG in detail, how crucial it is for him not to move and stand still (like that paper target does) during his assault towards you. Then I guarantee your hits will look similar to those on that paper.
i.e. Ferguson case!
10 or more shots 1 stopping hit.
and you're suppose to do the same thing with a simple double tap?
Good luck!
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ChattanoogaPhil
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"Real world effectiveness"
Google... An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power.
All real world defensive shootings. From .380 on up not much difference in stopping the threat.
Google... An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power.
All real world defensive shootings. From .380 on up not much difference in stopping the threat.
As much as we may hate to think about it, surviving a violent encounter has some component of luck. Plenty of unarmed and unskilled people have survived. Some armed and trained people have not. Sure, shot placement is key, but bullets can do funny things, and two identical shots can have vastly different results. The failure to stop drill (two rounds center of mass, one to the head) started out as Jeff Cooper's Mozambique Drill. This drill originated when an acquaintance of Cooper's encountered trouble in the namesake country and fired several rounds center-of-mass from a Browning Hi Power (I'm assuming 9x19 ball) with no apparent effect. As the threat approached, out of desperation, he fired one round at the head for an instant stop. What people often fail to mention is that the round actually hit the threat in the throat, severing the cervical spine. Talk about a lucky shot--it's certainly not a shot you can plan on making every time. Shooting at a round, hard object like the human skull is just asking for a deflected shot.
Over on Grant Cunningham's Revolver Blog he relates a verifiable story of an individual soaking up several solid torso hits with a military caliber weapon. The hostile was able to then exit his vehicle and run several yards to the opposite side of the road before collapsing. Oh, the weapon in question? It was a .50 BMG machine gun. If you can't get a guaranteed instant stop with multiple hits from a .50 BMG, there are certainly no guarantees with any handgun. The take home for me is to carry what I'm comfortable with (.38 +P K-Frame snub), and always do my damnedest to avoid trouble in the first place. With only 6 rounds at my disposal, I'm less likely to "spray and pray." If it comes down to it, I would much rather take a round myself than send a random one into a baby carriage. All in all, I've been pretty lucky in my life, but why push it?
Over on Grant Cunningham's Revolver Blog he relates a verifiable story of an individual soaking up several solid torso hits with a military caliber weapon. The hostile was able to then exit his vehicle and run several yards to the opposite side of the road before collapsing. Oh, the weapon in question? It was a .50 BMG machine gun. If you can't get a guaranteed instant stop with multiple hits from a .50 BMG, there are certainly no guarantees with any handgun. The take home for me is to carry what I'm comfortable with (.38 +P K-Frame snub), and always do my damnedest to avoid trouble in the first place. With only 6 rounds at my disposal, I'm less likely to "spray and pray." If it comes down to it, I would much rather take a round myself than send a random one into a baby carriage. All in all, I've been pretty lucky in my life, but why push it?
357-RevolverGuy
Member
There's evidence that goes back thousands of years. David took his little 5 shot (earliest known S&W Centennial on record) and slew Goliath with only one shot. Goes to show how important placement is.
This is a little hard to believe, so I went to the blog to find the details of "a verifiable story." I found the following at this link -
GrantCunningham.com - The Blog: Self Defense, Training, Revolvers, and more!
"Yes, small caliber bullets fail. Guess what? Large caliber bullets fail, too. As someone once told me, "put on your big-boy pants and deal with it!"
A good friend gave me a first-hand account of a battle incident wherein a fellow absorbed several solid torso hits and was still able to jump from his vehicle and cross a road before finally collapsing.
The gun in question? A .50 caliber heavy machine gun. Yes, you read that correctly. Sometimes, folks, nothing works."
Sorry, but nothing verified or verifiable there. No names, dates, location, situation or circumstance, nothing. Just another typical apocryphal internet story. How many is several? The dictionary says "several" is more than two, but not very many. So how many hits are they talking about in this "verifiable" story? What is a "solid torso hit"? Anything other than a flesh wound where the body cavity is penetrated?
I ain't buying it.
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
I'm not either. "Several solid torso hits" at any reasonable range with a .50 BMG would, I suspect, leave a lot of the affected torso hanging from trees and walls. And thus really discourage further activity on the part of the recipient. I'm no expert, but that smells of overripe carp to me.
I think that's one of those "Now this is no ****" stories.
ChattanoogaPhil
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Shouldazagged,
Steve Reichert One Mile Kill Shot.
History Channel video
Literally paints the wall red behind the targets. Watch to the end for the guy who gets hit through a brick wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRYwMrsaLxs
Buddy has an AR50. It's a hoot to shoot.
Steve Reichert One Mile Kill Shot.
History Channel video
Literally paints the wall red behind the targets. Watch to the end for the guy who gets hit through a brick wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRYwMrsaLxs
Buddy has an AR50. It's a hoot to shoot.
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Will Carry
Member
I have been through the gambit of concealed carry handguns over the years. From Glocks, XDs, 1911s to pocket 380s. I have conceal carried pistols that were so big and heavy that I had to wear suspenders to keep my pants up. I gradually have settled on my model 36 3". The extra inch gives me around 150fps more speed than a 2". I don't even bother with +P ammo. I feel that the advantages of a J-frame out weight the disadvantages.
Fastbolt
Member
Considering the lingering summer heat, one of my favorite retirement weapons to carry while riding my motorcycle is a J-frame.
Sure, I'll still sometimes belt on one of my 9's, .40's or .45's, but I like being able to remove my riding jackets or leather vests and walking around in a T-shirt off the bike, especially when stopping in one of the Coastal beach towns.
I remember when I took a 600 mile ride for a weekend with a friend during the summer heat several years ago. I was wearing a full-size .40 and he was wearing a 3913. Miserable in the heat, only having T-shirts under the jackets and unable to conceal the belt guns without the jackets.
Next trip I was carrying a 642 in a pocket holster and he was wearing a fanny pack with his 3913. It was after that trip that my friend promptly went out and bought a 642.
I do like how my LCP .380 is even easier to carry, but there are times when I'm on the road and I like to have some heavier bullet weights.
Sure, I'll still sometimes belt on one of my 9's, .40's or .45's, but I like being able to remove my riding jackets or leather vests and walking around in a T-shirt off the bike, especially when stopping in one of the Coastal beach towns.
I remember when I took a 600 mile ride for a weekend with a friend during the summer heat several years ago. I was wearing a full-size .40 and he was wearing a 3913. Miserable in the heat, only having T-shirts under the jackets and unable to conceal the belt guns without the jackets.
Next trip I was carrying a 642 in a pocket holster and he was wearing a fanny pack with his 3913. It was after that trip that my friend promptly went out and bought a 642.
I do like how my LCP .380 is even easier to carry, but there are times when I'm on the road and I like to have some heavier bullet weights.
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With today's Buffalo Bore, Speer Gold Dot and other high end +P defense rounds, I would think that the ol' .38 Special is far better than 50% - considering almost no one still uses the standard velocity RNL bullets.
Out of a 2" barrel, the Buffalo Bore Heavy +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC actually comes in with better ballistics and performance than does most .357 Magnums out of the same 2" barrel (.357 Mag's just don't reach their potential out of a 2" tube). The Speer GD 135 grain +P is no slouch either. As long as you avoid what I call the old watered down ammo from the big three and stick with high performing defense cartridges, the .38 Special is a very viable stopper IMHO.
Of course NO MATTER WHAT AMMO YOU USE the best way to insure stopping a threat is to hit the target in a vulnerable area - no ammo is a substitute for practice and live ammo drills.
Out of a 2" barrel, the Buffalo Bore Heavy +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC actually comes in with better ballistics and performance than does most .357 Magnums out of the same 2" barrel (.357 Mag's just don't reach their potential out of a 2" tube). The Speer GD 135 grain +P is no slouch either. As long as you avoid what I call the old watered down ammo from the big three and stick with high performing defense cartridges, the .38 Special is a very viable stopper IMHO.
Of course NO MATTER WHAT AMMO YOU USE the best way to insure stopping a threat is to hit the target in a vulnerable area - no ammo is a substitute for practice and live ammo drills.
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AZretired
Member
I have, several times, great book. I met Ed back in the days when he was teaching at the NM LE Academy. Nice guy, good instructor.
Since Grant is relating a first-hand account, I considered this not verified, but verifiable if one were willing to call him on it. Apocryphal or not, I trust the source (you may not, and that's certainly understandable), and from my own experience, it seems plausible. From decades of big game hunting, I've seen similar effects. Sometimes they drop like someone flipped a switch, and sometimes they don't. The first example that comes to mind is a mule deer I hit with a 30-06. I was on a hillside, and she was on an adjacent hill maybe 60 yards away, about even with my position in elevation. I made the shot, but she just took off, bounding through the scrub oak and cresting the hill then disappearing from sight. I waited 10 minutes and followed. It took me a good 20 minutes to hike down into the draw then climb up the other side. Once I crested the hill, it wasn't long before I saw that she had gotten about 20 yards down the other side. It was a good hit because when we dressed her out, her heart and lungs were shredded. If memory serves, I was using Federal Premium with the Nosler Partition bullet.
My thinking is that if this little 100-pound doe could run that far with no heart and lungs, a grown man in his prime could probably run across the street in similar condition before dropping.
The point I wanted to make is: don't rely on the gun only. Have other tools--mainly your wits and your body. Drill to deflect, deescalate, and disengage. Sprint and lift, and not just curls and crunches. Do heavy squats and deadlifts so that you might survive a violent frontal or flanking assault without being taken to the ground. And learn to fight from the ground just in case. Finally, avoid being at the "wrong place at the wrong time." The ATM at 2:00AM fits those criteria. The handgun in any iteration is not the be-all and end-all. It just can't be counted on 100% of the time.
Biggfoot44
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In a way the OP rendered his own thread moot with post #28 , but I'll belated offer some thoughts on the origional topic.
( Presuming that one cares to glean information from real word events ) The performance of .38 Spl generally , and from 2in - ish bbls is as well know as for any calebre.
With "loadingd of historical good performance" , a 2-ish inch .38Spl rises into the realm of *Reasonably Adaquate* .( Some people don't care , some want damn good , near the best effectiveness, whatever that means to them. Make your own trade offs.)
For those who are reasonably comfortable with reasonably adaquate, the discussion moves to the gun itself :
With YOUR gun , in YOUR hands, can you group your rounds into an adaquately small grouping , out to a distance you consider sufficent for primary self defense ? Not wishing to be vague , but there are a whole buncha different ideas of what is needed/ desired everybody must decide for themselves. I know what my personal parameters are, but won't presume them to be universal.
For me : I frequently admit to my fetish for 2in RB K frame carry guns, with loads of my preference , the combination is certainly *Reasonably Adaquate* .
J Frames ? Once upon a decade I had access to free ammo. I was able to hone my DA chops to the point of ( well let's say half the group size and twice the speed of usual goals , using full size revolver ). At that point I could get sorta close to almost kind of conditionally adaquate using an Airweight J frame. With custom grips. And outright painful to shoot for 50 rounds. This about as far from a ringing endorsement I can get , short of a flat Heck No. Persons with a lower opinion of adaquate power and/ or reevaluate the steel vs alloy weight tradeoffs might have a different evaluation. For me , this was a BUG.
( Presuming that one cares to glean information from real word events ) The performance of .38 Spl generally , and from 2in - ish bbls is as well know as for any calebre.
With "loadingd of historical good performance" , a 2-ish inch .38Spl rises into the realm of *Reasonably Adaquate* .( Some people don't care , some want damn good , near the best effectiveness, whatever that means to them. Make your own trade offs.)
For those who are reasonably comfortable with reasonably adaquate, the discussion moves to the gun itself :
With YOUR gun , in YOUR hands, can you group your rounds into an adaquately small grouping , out to a distance you consider sufficent for primary self defense ? Not wishing to be vague , but there are a whole buncha different ideas of what is needed/ desired everybody must decide for themselves. I know what my personal parameters are, but won't presume them to be universal.
For me : I frequently admit to my fetish for 2in RB K frame carry guns, with loads of my preference , the combination is certainly *Reasonably Adaquate* .
J Frames ? Once upon a decade I had access to free ammo. I was able to hone my DA chops to the point of ( well let's say half the group size and twice the speed of usual goals , using full size revolver ). At that point I could get sorta close to almost kind of conditionally adaquate using an Airweight J frame. With custom grips. And outright painful to shoot for 50 rounds. This about as far from a ringing endorsement I can get , short of a flat Heck No. Persons with a lower opinion of adaquate power and/ or reevaluate the steel vs alloy weight tradeoffs might have a different evaluation. For me , this was a BUG.
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