Red Dot Optics on Combat Pistols?

[Henric]

I have a Burris Fast fire 2 red dot on my M&P pro in 40 . I Like it so much. I have friends who have shot Trijicon, Leupold, and Burris reflexes on 9mm, 40SW, 10mm and 45 without issues.
Home Page - Ellett Brothers

 

[Trooper224]

RDS are the wave of the future. I was a sceptic until my old agency transitioned from the Mini-14 to the Colt M4, mounted with an Aimpoint Comp M4 RDS. I used that rifle for the last twelve years of my career and it was a game changer on many levels, it made a believer out of me.

Now, over a decade later, if you're in military or law enforcement circles and don't have an RDS on your rifle, you're in the stone age. Within the next decade we'll see the same with handgun sights in those fields, it's already happening.

Do you have to have one to be proficient? Of course not, that's a strawman argument. Anecdotes about running through the jungle in Southeast Asia with an M14 and a 1911 are irrelevant as well. The same types complained about the repeating rifle when it replaced the single shot, or the 1911 when it replaced the revolver, or the M1 Rifle when it replaced the M1903, or when telescopic sights became standard on hunting rifles, on and on. Grousers were proven wrong at every step of the way. Anyone who thinks point shooting is preferred over sighted fire has never been in a gunfight, or you simply got lucky that one time and you don't know what you don't know.

I don't currently use one on my carry gun for several reasons: I simply don't need it. I've used irons efficiently for decades and my eyesight is fine. Cost is also another issue, although prices are starting to become less than the cost of a gun itself. Until recently, guns needed to be modified at additional expense to take an RDS, but now many are coming from the factory with that capability. The technology has finally reached a level of maturity where I feel comfortable with it on a handgun, for a long time I wasn't. Right now, the juice isn't worth the squeeze for me personally. However, when it becomes necessary I'll have no hesitation in switching to one.

I'm not a guy with cool war stories, or someone with hidebound anecdotal opinions formed from the armchair. I'm just a guy with well over a decades worth of RDS field use, so take all this for what it's worth.

 

[Doug M.]

I know a guy who was known to 'carry'. He was pulling out of his plumbing supply yard in his big Jeep when two young men ripped open his door (while car was moving), yanked him outta the car and simply stole his gun right out of his holster. The car was eventually stopped by the normal city traffic.

*
Assess this from the right mindset in terms of making life harder for offenders and the first problem is readily apparent. There is no reason of which I can think to have your car doors unlocked except to get in and out. Period.

As for the sights: My academy was pure hardcore Gunsite influenced training. As far as I can recall, one could not even be an instructor there without being a Gunsite grad at an advanced level, and maybe even instructor level trained. Those of my age know then that the front sight focus was drilled into us. I have never been worth a darn at true point shooting as every bit of training I had involved a presentation that allowed picking up the sights, and the need to do so was clearly shown to us. Even with crummy vision and contacts, I could do pretty well.

Age made a high change in that. First step was moving to XS sights, either as part of their express system with a Big Dot, or with a real big notch (.160) in the rear sight for a standard sized XS tritium dot. Even that became less than optimal, although I still do pretty well with the Bog Dots on my G33 and and the small one and big notch on a Wilson pistol. Fiber optic? Nope. Hate 'em.

I was first exposed to RDS by Pat Rogers in AR classes and they made a HUGE difference. As my eyes got worse (age related lack of flexibility), RDS became more of an option. I have access to hard use shooters similar to Mr. Campbell, and the experience is as far as I can think, uniform - RDS on a fighting pistol are not just better but important, even vital, to maximized performance under bad conditions. Yes, they do require a transition. My first RDS was a regular Aimpoint on a G17; it was too high and presentations were awful. Time to first shot was not even close to proficient. The smart LE instructors are advocating teaching from the start with RDS because that works best to develop the shooting skills.

I got one of the PC Shields and it was a lot better, and with the old sight removed and replaced with an Acro on my G17, the options are a lot better. The fact that young fit infantry soldiers did well with 1911s and Garands, M14s, and early ARs with iron sights is all well and good and means no more than my preference in pizza toppings. Today's infantry has RDS equipped rifles as a rule because they work, improving combat effectiveness.

Don't want an RDS for whatever reason? Think the training curve is not worth YOUR time and money? Ok, fine. The reality is that they are simply much better on a fighting tool almost all the time for almost all shooters.

 

[LCC]

The decades of '3 shots up close and it's over' is rapidly becoming the good old days. When was the last time we read/heard about a shooter using a 5 shot revolver? Seems every shooting involves high capacity semi's or ARs.
So for many of us average pistoleros, the EDC comfort zone starts with 10 or more on tap, plus a spare mag when deemed sensible.
Who was the noted gunner who said 'you're only armed for as long as you have ammo"...

 

[9mmPatriot]

My eyes aren't getting any younger so it was no-brainer for me to add an optic.

FWIW,
I opted for a Holosun407c V2 GreenDot and an OuterImpact adapter plate (no milling required).

The 407c has their Shake Awake feature so the optic is on as soon as you pick it up. It is also equipped with a solar cell that powers the optic if the battery dies. It works even in low light conditions.

The green dot (2 MOA) is very easy to find, but it does take practice coming from standard sights.

 

[Doug M.]

Remember that a smaller dot is harder to find fast. If you consider that a typical front sight is going to be 8-11 MOA, a 6 MOA dot is not too big for adequate precision.

 

[9mmPatriot]

Remember that a smaller dot is harder to find fast. If you consider that a typical front sight is going to be 8-11 MOA, a 6 MOA dot is not too big for adequate precision.

I think that there are far to many variables for this to be true for everyone.

Color, brightness setting, user experience level, etc, all come into play.

As with all things firearms related, practice is mandatory to establish and maintain a perishable skill.

 

[CB3]

Remember that a smaller dot is harder to find fast. If you consider that a typical front sight is going to be 8-11 MOA, a 6 MOA dot is not too big for adequate precision.

Having had both—the larger dot first—I can say for me the smaller dot is definitely better. My front sight is 0.119" wide and in relation to my 3.25 MoA RMR dot it appears to be less than 6 MoA wide, probably 5. That's wide enough for visibility, accuracy, and disappearing when necessary. Eleven MoA wide would be huge.

It is not hard to see in the window. At distance it is much smaller for more precision, since the size of the dot does not change as applied to the target, but the target gets smaller. The smaller dot allows for some "blooming" when brightness of the dot is high and a 3 will appear to be a 4-5. A 6 will appear to be a 7-8. That's too big.

I am also not a fan of big iron sights, like XS Big Dots, as they obscure too much of the field of view except at very close ranges. They are not good for precision, and while hits count for self defense, well aimed shots that hit vitals are better, especially done with speed. The smaller dot does not detract from this capability, and the larger dot does not enhance it.

While a RDS should be co-witnessed with irons in the lower 25% of the window. Usually this requires elevated irons to reach into that sight plane. Those sights should be able to be ignored while concentrating on the dot. The irons should disappear. So they should not be colored, large, wide or confuse the RDS sight picture. If you have a front iron sight that is over 8 MoA wide, you have a very big front sight blade compared to even a 6 MoA dot. It's just not necessary.

The dot should be sighted in sitting on top of the front iron when properly aligned, but it should be used centered in the window, thereby giving the greatest visibility of the whole target, vertically and horizontally. The lower vertical and horizontal components are not available using just irons, another plus for the RDS.

Supposed advantages of iron sights do not relate directly to best practice uses of RDS. Try to use both size dots before you buy, but if you have any doubts, go small. You'll thank me later.

 

[balin]

I plan to segue over tp gadgetry in the near future. And am scouting options out now. My aging eyes only see fuzzy sights or blurry targets. RDS or green should do the trick. A lazer was great once I got used to them. Once it was pointed out to me by an ICE agent that even if the battery goes dead the upper edge of the housing could be used to align the gun to the shoulders of a person, it made it even easier to decide to switch over.

 

[Echo40]

For a Military/Police Duty Pistol, Red Dot Optics make sense because they don't add much weight and make aiming quicker/easier. However, on a Civilian Concealed Carry Pistol, especially Subcompacts, it makes no sense at all to me because it only makes the gun less easy to conceal, adds weight to the firearm, and the likelihood of a Red Dot ever coming into play in a self-defense shooting at distances in which anyone could legitimately benefit from it are so extremely low that it becomes impractical as far as I'm concerned. It strikes me as the latest trend in concealed carry, something that doesn't really have a practical application or legitimate use in its effective role, and only serves to drive up the production costs of pistols to accommodate the feature, but everybody wants it because that's what authorities carry/swear by.

TL;DR: Red Dot Optics have practical applications for a wide variety of offensive/defensive roles, but Concealed Carry isn't one of them.

 

[9mmPatriot]

I have not had any issues concealing my M&P 2.0 (4") with my 407c optic.

Think about where the opic is on the firearm. It's not going stick out away from your body.

Virtually any concealed sidearm can be seen if you know someone carrys. Keep it covered and act as though you aren't carrying.

 

[CB3]

TL;DR: Red Dot Optics have practical applications for a wide variety of offensive/defensive roles, but Concealed Carry isn't one of them.

An opinion from a person who probably has not used the new sighting system, or tried carrying a concealed pistol with one.

Here's my Shield 9mm 1.0 with a Shield RDS. It conceals easily. The metal removed from the slide for mounting compensates for much of the slight increase in weight, which is toward the rear of the gun so it is no impediment. It is just as useful at close range as traditional iron sights. It is significantly more useful than irons at more extended ranges, increasing the capability of the gun. I carry it concealed only by an untucked shirt, just like I do my full-size M&P, AIWB. No problem.

You cannot predict your fight. Saying you won't have to take a 15 yard precision headshot using your CCW pistol (e.g., Texas church shooting) is a mistake IMO. Prepare your equipment and you for the worst of a wide variety of situations, or not.

Saying an RDS is not for concealed carry, especially on a sub-compact, is not accurate. Informed decisions from experience usually carry more weight than opinions without experience.

 

[Rolex28]

For me it all boils down to whether we are shooting in competition or shooting in a life and death situation..I doubt there are any firm statistics on how many rounds fired during the later situation. 3-4 ?? I also suspect very few are on target. So basic sites are enough for the bedroom. I also suspect for most we will be shaking as it will be our first time...