Registered Magnum ammo?

[merlindrb]

Bob

The Peters is pre-war. You can tell from the picture box style and the address on the back. Pre-war has the Cinncinnati address, post-war has the Remington Bridgeport (?) address. Remington was bought out by DuPont in 1933 and Remington/Dupont bought Peters in 1934. Remington closed the Peters factory in Cinncinnati just before the war and re-opened it only for war-time ammo production. A pic of a post war style box is below - totally different style (and address) as you can see.

The Remington box is just post war I believe. Pre-war Remington .38's are generally in the dog-bone boxes. .357's are in the style in my picture above. I have seen .38's in the same style but they all had large primers. I believe they created that style pre-war just for the Hi-Speed cartirdges. I'm sure there are some Remington experts on here who can add to this.

Re the Western boxes, the 2 blue and yellow boxes are pre-1944 if they don't have the bottom line of the address as "Division of Olin Industries Inc", post-1944 if they do. (You might like to note that from 1954 the boxes were labelled "Olin Mathieson Chemical Corporation".) The Yellow boxes with the red cross are mid-late 50's and the white box with red cross is mid- late 60's.

Hope it helps.

 

[bettis1]

Dave,

Thanks for that info. It's very helpful and I'll go though my ammo locker tomorrow and make notes on everything.

And I thought that S&W boxes were confusing! They're nothing compared to the ammo manufacturers.

Bob

 

[smith17]

I ran across this excellent thread in my desire to learn about a box of ammo I picked up this week and thought I would add some pics and details that are a bit different than those already posted in case someone else is trying to research this ammo in the future. This box is very similar to one that 29-1 had provided but has "Nickel Plated Shell" stamped on the box top in the first pic. The info on one of the sides is also different. The end flap (not pictured) has a lot number of K 3570T and the tuck in flap has a caution statement on the inside that states:

To insure the complete absence of corrosive fouling, before commencing the use of Staynless Ammunition, both new and old barrels should be flushed inside with a hot solution of washing soda or soap, or with boiling water and then wiped dry. We do not recommend the reloading of these shells.

A previous poster, I think on another thread, mentioned how much gunk was deposited from some of this earlier lead ammo.

Anyway, I thought it was cool enough to add to the bank of knowlege here.

Ed

 

[bettis1]

Ed,

Nice box. The overprint stamp of the "Nickel Plated Shell" just emphasizes how difficult it is to get a grip on these things.

Did you find it at the Dallas Show? I didn't find as much collectable ammo there as usual. I did pick up a couple of boxes of old .38 S&W... an early Remington Kleanbore box and a VERY early full box of UMC Black Powder.

Bob

 

[smith17]

Bob:
No, I didn't get it at Dallas although I did get a full box of older Remington Kleanbore in 38 S&W for $5. I saw a ratty box with pointed .357 magnums that, in retrospect, might have been some of the metal piercing stuff that I did not act upon.
Ed

 

[bettis1]

Yep, Ed. The "pointy" ones would have been the metal piercing ones all right. I missed seeing those.

Bob

 

[merlindrb]

That's a good find Ed.

Were the "pointed" ones Winchester or Western? There's an example of the Western below. They're all rare, but Winchester Metal Piercing are extremely unusual.

Dave

 

[smith17]

Dave:
I've been trying to recall who the manufacturer was or what the box looked like but I'm afraid I have wiped it from my hard drive. Another that I didn't get from the same guy (I think I was going to go back later and then ended up forgetting) was a pristine box of .41 Long Colt, full of rounds and wrapped in plastic. The guy said he might have to get 50 bucks for it and I knew a guy who said he would credit me $100 for the Colt box toward a RM trigger/hammer combo. But then I realized I forgot where the RM guy lived (you can see I am having some recall issues). So I put the purchase on hold while I walked the rest of the gunshow and talked with Bob about his $300 Cokes and he said he was flexible on the price and could go up to $400 if I insisted. So that threw me off and I forgot about the Colt ammo and the pointy ammo.
Ed

 

[smith17]

Thread resurrection.

I have tagged this RM ammo thread in my favorites since there are so many excellent pics (Micheal Stern, what happened to yours?) and it is so helpful in identifying old boxes. I received the book to which Bob Bettis referred, One Hundred Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes 1856-1956 earlier this year and it is my second most used gun book. Ray Giles and Dan Shuey did an incredible job of putting together this reference and the color pictures are very nice. It would make a great Christmas present.
One box that caught my eye was the US Cartridge Co. .357 box on page 284 (posted below) which has the caption referring to it as "Thought to be Winchester's first .357 Magnum offering..." I contacted Mr. Giles and asked permission to post that picture, which he granted and also added the following statement:
"The "1935" style box by Win would have been issued at about the same time as the US Cartridge Co box so there's no way to prove which is the earlier. My theory has been that the US Cartridge Co box came first, Winchester having relegated it to USCCo for a "trial run" before it was known whether or not the cartridge was going to be successful. When it was met with some enthusiasm (my theory goes) Winchester added it to the line in late 1935 (though it was not cataloged until 1936)."

Everything in bold is Mr. Giles' statement. I just thought that the info in this thread was worth adding onto. The 1935 style box, yellow/red/blue, is like the one Chuck (29-1) posted near the top of this page and is the one I had written to Mr. Giles about.
Again, I encourage anyone interested in these ammo boxes to obtain a copy of this book. Bob provided a link on the first page.
Ed

 

[merlindrb]

Ed

That's a really unusual box. I'd love to add one of those to my small collection of pre-war boxes.

For those who don't know Ray Giles, co-author of the above mentioned book, he has a large table of ammo at the Tulsa show and is always willing to help and answer questions.

At this Fall show I came across a box of Winchester pre-war 357. The stall holder had put them aside for Rays examination and purchase. When Ray found out that I was also chasing them he stepped aside and let me buy them for an excellent price. A VERY VERY nice man!

 

[SRT]

 

[smith17]

Jim:
I found your post from July of last year also. That is about the cleanest box of that era that I have seen. Very nice. The ammo also appears to have the large primer. I recently found some Western .38 Special of that era that has large primers.
Ed

 

[bettis1]

Ed,

Thanks for reviving this thread with a very desirable box. There are some terrific pictures and date info here.

Dave,

Sure good to see you're still around. It's been too long and we miss your posts!

Bob

 

[merlindrb]

Now that's as nice a box of pre-war magnum ammo as I've ever seen. Very nice SRT - congrats!

Bob - it's good to be back, thank you. Hopefully I'll post some of my most recent acquisitions over the next couple of weeks. I've picked up a couple of beauties from Dick Burg that I'm looking forward to sharing.

 

[smith17]

Dave:
Does your box of metal piercing ammo have the blue X on the ends, like the one in the pic below, or a red X? I found these recently, both pre-war I believe.
I also located some ballistics info from an early 50s Winchester ammo handbook giving the .357 Magnum Metal Piercing Super-X 158 gr. muzzle velocity as 1450 fps with energy at 690 ft.lbs. and penetrating 12 soft pine boards, 7/8" thick at 15 ft. All from an 8 3/8" barrel. For some reason there is no mention of the round/cartridge in a 1941 Winchester handbook.
Ed

 

[bettis1]

Ed,

I have two boxes of Western Super-X .357 Magnum ammo similar to yours. (Mine aren't metal piercing, however.) On both of mine the X on the end is red. The only difference in my two boxes is that on the top of one, the line NICKEL PLATED CASE was printed over with a solid black line.

I was told by an ammo collector that the box with the NICKEL PLATED CASE dated to 1939 through 1944 and the box with that lined out was after 1944.

I also have a box of Peters HIGH VELOCITY .357 Magnum similar to your .38 Special and I believe that dates from the late'30s to early '40s.

Bob

I just remembered that I pictured these boxes earlier in the thread but I don't think that I had the dates at that time.
B.

 

[smith17]

Thanks, Bob. Most of the ones I have seen had a red X on the end. I wonder if different years of production had different colors. Unfortunately, all of the Winchester and Western catalogs of that era that I have seen only had B&W drawings or photos of the boxes.
Ed

 

[smith17]

I recently contacted Ray Giles regarding some pre-war boxes and mentioned this thread. He was interested in the content and mentioned that he could most likely firm up some dates (or eras) for the boxes shown over these 3 pages. I gathered that we may not be exactly accurate in dating some of them. He said he could help if we could supply him with more pictures of the back sides of the boxes that are pictured and the flap codes which I assume are the numbers stamped in ink on the inside of the end flaps (but could also be the K codes on the outside ends). If any of you would find this useful, I would invite you to re-post with the additional info or I would be willing to accumulate pics and codes of those who don't want to re-post. Beside Ray's and Mr. Shuey's book, I am not aware of a resource which encompasses multiple manufacturers/dates of these boxes. And their book primarily focused on rifle cartridges although there are some handgun rounds included. Thought it might add to our knowledge.
Ed

 

[bettis1]

Ed,

This is a real chance for us to finally gain some definitive information on some of the older ammo from one of the most respected ammuniton collectors in the business. Thanks for contacting Ray.

I just looked in my ammo locker and I probably have upwards of 50 or more boxes of old ammo from the first half of the 20th Century. Unfortunately, most of the boxes are sealed up in plastic for display purposes. If he wants the product numbers from the end of the box I can probably make a list of those, however, if I need to open the plastic and copy the lot numbers inside, that may take a while.

I wonder if Ray would consent to writing an article dealing with ammo for the early hand ejectors (i.e. .38 S&W, .38 Spl., .38/44, .357 Mag., .44 Spl.).

Bob

 

[smith17]

I recently bought a box, which had originally housed 50 pre-war Winchester .357 magnum cartridges, from a young lady. She asked me if I needed any ammunition to go with it and I replied that I thought that would be fitting. She went through her drawers and came up with about 20 cartridges of .357 magnum. They were not all of Winchester make as about 6 were from the Western Cartridge outfit. They all had been reloaded with a jacketed soft point bullet but one thing caught my eye as I studied the other end. One (only one) of the cartridges with the Western Super X headstamp had a large primer inserted. Odd in that earlier in this thread no one had claimed to be in possession of any pre-war (or post-war) WESTERN .357 magnum cartridges fitted for a large primer. I thought I would post a pic with comparison cartridges flanking it in case it would be of interest. Respectfully submitted.
Ed